Christianity and the Holocaust

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

reasonvemotion
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 am

Re: Christianity and the Holocaust

Post by reasonvemotion »

Most Jews do not believe in any coming messiah. The messiah was never contemplated as being a god anyway, the notion is entirely inconsistent with Judaism.

The Mashiach/The Messiah the idea of the Messiah according to the Torah

"The mashiach will be a great political leader descended by a pure male line from King David (Jeremiah 23,5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (The Mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11,2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military figure who will win battles for Israel, freeing the Jews of foreign domination and establishing a Torah-based kingdom in Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33,15). But above all, he will be a fully normal human being, not a god, demi-god, or other supernatural being.


When did Jews stop offering sacrifices, and why?

For the most part, the practice of sacrifice stopped in the year 70 C.E., when the Roman army destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem, the place where sacrifices were offered. The practice was briefly resumed during the Jewish War of 132-135 C.E., but was ended permanently after that war was lost. There were also a few communities that continued sacrifices for a while after that time.
We stopped offering sacrifices because we do not have a proper place to offer them. The Torah specifically commands us not to offer sacrifices wherever we feel like it; we are only permitted to offer sacrifices in the place that God has chosen for that purpose (Deuteronomy 12,13-14). It would be a sin to offer sacrifices in any other place.
The last place appointed by God for this purpose was the Temple in Jerusalem; but the Temple has been destroyed, and a mosque has been erected in the place where it stood. Until we observant Jews recapture the Temple Mount and rebuild the Temple, we cannot offer sacrifices.
Orthodox Jews believe that when the Mashiach comes, sacrifices will be renewed. Some of us think it better not to wait for him, but to be about the business of rebuilding the Temple and reinstituting the sacrifices; in any event, it is permitted to bring all of the regular order of sacrifices today on the Temple Mount at the place where the altar was, even now when the Temple is no longer standing.

Do Jews want to resume sacrifices?

Orthodox Jews do. There are several places in our daily prayer services where we pray for the restoration of the Temple and the resumption of its rituals, including the rituals of sacrifice".


Your description of Judaism, I hope, is essentially your own and not all encompassing. I deduce from it that it is" all things to all men" changing constantly, without rules. The Jews had difficulty in obeying God and were cast out because of this. One cannot claim to be a Christian unless the laws of the Scriptures are adhered to. The lawless will be as many as the sands of the seas, in the last days. Billions................. so you wont be alone.
User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Christianity and the Holocaust

Post by Kayla »

ForgedinHell wrote:Most Jews do not believe in any coming messiah. The messiah was never contemplated as being a god anyway, the notion is entirely inconsistent with Judaism.
the way a reform rabbi explained it to me is that everything in the torah - the creation of the world the destruction of the world coming of the messiah - are all occurring all the time which is why the torah uses present tense so much
what do you get regarding Jesus? Jesus becomes a concrete, easier to grasp symbol of god, for many people. But, the Jewish conception of god is of an abstract being beyond our understanding, so to reduce god to such a state is abhorrent. Furthermore, Jesus becomes a symbol, an icon, and Judaism seeks to evolve beyond the use of icons.
have you read carl jungs 'answer to job'

the idea there is that god is beyond understanding but if that is the case than humans must be beyond gods understanding

jesus bridges that gap
Thundril
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:37 pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: Christianity and the Holocaust

Post by Thundril »

Kayla wrote:
have you read carl jungs 'answer to job'

the idea there is that god is beyond understanding but if that is the case than humans must be beyond gods understanding

jesus bridges that gap
Are amoeba beyond our understanding?
User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Christianity and the Holocaust

Post by Kayla »

Thundril wrote:Are amoeba beyond our understanding?
when it comes to understanding what the subjective experience of being an amoeba is, totally
Thundril
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:37 pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: Christianity and the Holocaust

Post by Thundril »

Yes. See what you mean. :)
User avatar
Kayla
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:31 am

Re: Christianity and the Holocaust

Post by Kayla »

reasonvemotion wrote:Do Jews want to resume sacrifices?

Orthodox Jews do. There are several places in our daily prayer services where we pray for the restoration of the Temple and the resumption of its rituals, including the rituals of sacrifice".
ok could you clarify the whole bit about burning perfectly good meat

seems terribly wasteful

also what are your plans for the dome of the rock?

or do you plan to rebuild the temple somewhere else
User avatar
ForgedinHell
Posts: 762
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:26 am
Location: Pueblo West, CO

Re: Christianity and the Holocaust

Post by ForgedinHell »

reasonvemotion wrote:
Most Jews do not believe in any coming messiah. The messiah was never contemplated as being a god anyway, the notion is entirely inconsistent with Judaism.

The Mashiach/The Messiah the idea of the Messiah according to the Torah

"The mashiach will be a great political leader descended by a pure male line from King David (Jeremiah 23,5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (The Mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11,2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military figure who will win battles for Israel, freeing the Jews of foreign domination and establishing a Torah-based kingdom in Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33,15). But above all, he will be a fully normal human being, not a god, demi-god, or other supernatural being.


When did Jews stop offering sacrifices, and why?

For the most part, the practice of sacrifice stopped in the year 70 C.E., when the Roman army destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem, the place where sacrifices were offered. The practice was briefly resumed during the Jewish War of 132-135 C.E., but was ended permanently after that war was lost. There were also a few communities that continued sacrifices for a while after that time.
We stopped offering sacrifices because we do not have a proper place to offer them. The Torah specifically commands us not to offer sacrifices wherever we feel like it; we are only permitted to offer sacrifices in the place that God has chosen for that purpose (Deuteronomy 12,13-14). It would be a sin to offer sacrifices in any other place.
The last place appointed by God for this purpose was the Temple in Jerusalem; but the Temple has been destroyed, and a mosque has been erected in the place where it stood. Until we observant Jews recapture the Temple Mount and rebuild the Temple, we cannot offer sacrifices.
Orthodox Jews believe that when the Mashiach comes, sacrifices will be renewed. Some of us think it better not to wait for him, but to be about the business of rebuilding the Temple and reinstituting the sacrifices; in any event, it is permitted to bring all of the regular order of sacrifices today on the Temple Mount at the place where the altar was, even now when the Temple is no longer standing.

Do Jews want to resume sacrifices?

Orthodox Jews do. There are several places in our daily prayer services where we pray for the restoration of the Temple and the resumption of its rituals, including the rituals of sacrifice".


Your description of Judaism, I hope, is essentially your own and not all encompassing. I deduce from it that it is" all things to all men" changing constantly, without rules. The Jews had difficulty in obeying God and were cast out because of this. One cannot claim to be a Christian unless the laws of the Scriptures are adhered to. The lawless will be as many as the sands of the seas, in the last days. Billions................. so you wont be alone.
My description of Judaism is consistent with a lot of the reform movements, a spinozist outlook, humanistic Judaism, and I know a number of Jewish friends who agree with me, who do not belong to any congregation. There are also, for what it is worth, Jewish websites on the net that describe Judaism as I have. Do you really think that the Talmud, and other Jewish writings, that have been written through the centuries, mean nothing? I do not consider the Orthodox Jews to be anything to brag about, they are as misguided as one can be. You are also listing a fringe within the Orthodox movement, because I know a number of Orthodox who would state, quite vocally, that your description of their beliefs was slanderous.

It is really irrelevant to me anyway, because I am an atheist.
User avatar
ForgedinHell
Posts: 762
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:26 am
Location: Pueblo West, CO

Re: Christianity and the Holocaust

Post by ForgedinHell »

Kayla wrote:
ForgedinHell wrote:Most Jews do not believe in any coming messiah. The messiah was never contemplated as being a god anyway, the notion is entirely inconsistent with Judaism.
the way a reform rabbi explained it to me is that everything in the torah - the creation of the world the destruction of the world coming of the messiah - are all occurring all the time which is why the torah uses present tense so much
what do you get regarding Jesus? Jesus becomes a concrete, easier to grasp symbol of god, for many people. But, the Jewish conception of god is of an abstract being beyond our understanding, so to reduce god to such a state is abhorrent. Furthermore, Jesus becomes a symbol, an icon, and Judaism seeks to evolve beyond the use of icons.
have you read carl jungs 'answer to job'

the idea there is that god is beyond understanding but if that is the case than humans must be beyond gods understanding

jesus bridges that gap
Maimonides stated, in his private writings, in I think the 12th century, that god was beyond comprehension. So, Jung claims that logically this would make us incomprehensible to god? In mathematics, only some equations have inverses, and I think this applies to sentences written in English as well. By what logic does he make such a claim?

I am not up on Jung. Too close to Freud, and there is something about Freud and the cigar story that I have difficulty getting out of my head.
Post Reply