Christianity and the Holocaust

[ForgedinHell]

Since Christianity was the driving force behind the Jews being killed during the Holocaust, can anyone who presently claims to be a Christian, be moral. My position is no. Anyone care to argue against this statement?

[John]

Depends what you mean by Christianity being the driving force. Do you mean the people who orchestrated the holocaust did so because they were Christian or driven by Christian teachings? Or do you mean that there's something at the heart of Christianity that allows it to justify the holocaust or make it an inevitability? Maybe you mean none of these things but I think the premise needs some clarification.

[ForgedinHell]

Depends what you mean by Christianity being the driving force. Do you mean the people who orchestrated the holocaust did so because they were Christian or driven by Christian teachings? Or do you mean that there's something at the heart of Christianity that allows it to justify the holocaust or make it an inevitability? Maybe you mean none of these things but I think the premise needs some clarification.

Good point. I mean each of these things. 1. Christianity laid the ground work for the Holocaust to happen with centuries of anti-semitism. 2. That not only the nazis highest-ranking members, but the rank and file and the people who murdered Jews were predominantly Christians. 3. That the nazis had full support from Christians in committing the murders, even following the end of the war. The Vatican, for example, set up the escape route for such infamous nazis as Dr. Mengele, and were hoping that world war III would start soon, so all Jews would be killed off. 4. The myth of Christianity that contains numerous anti-semitic passages, including the charge that Jews were Christ killers, and all Jews are responsible for the crime, demonized Jews to the point where their mass murder by Christians was considered moral. 5. To this day, Christians continue to teach anti-semitism. 6. To this day, the vast majority of Christians lie about their involvement in the Holocaust. This lie alone is immoral, as it makes another Holocaust more likely to occur, not less likely to occur.

So, my charge is basically this: How can someone who willingly signs up as a member of a group that slaughtered millions, including the murder of Jewish babies by tossing them, while alive, into fires, be a moral person?

[John]

1. Christianity laid the ground work for the Holocaust to happen with centuries of anti-semitism.

It's probably hard to argue that Christianity has, historically at least, sewn the seeds of anti-semitism.

2. That not only the nazis highest-ranking members, but the rank and file and the people who murdered Jews were predominantly Christians.

I think we need to be careful not to confuse cause and correlation here as they had other group characteristics as well.

3. That the nazis had full support from Christians in committing the murders, even following the end of the war. The Vatican, for example, set up the escape route for such infamous nazis as Dr. Mengele, and were hoping that world war III would start soon, so all Jews would be killed off.

Did they have support from a broad base of Christian's though? A lot of the people that fought the Nazi's also proclaimed themselves to be Christians as well.

4. The myth of Christianity that contains numerous anti-semitic passages, including the charge that Jews were Christ killers, and all Jews are responsible for the crime, demonized Jews to the point where their mass murder by Christians was considered moral.

This is evidence for point 1 and not a new charge though.

5. To this day, Christians continue to teach anti-semitism.

Can you elaborate on this?

6. To this day, the vast majority of Christians lie about their involvement in the Holocaust. This lie alone is immoral, as it makes another Holocaust more likely to occur, not less likely to occur.

The majority of Christians weren't alive during the holocaust so they couldn't have been involved in it.

So, my charge is basically this: How can someone who willingly signs up as a member of a group that slaughtered millions, including the murder of Jewish babies by tossing them, while alive, into fires, be a moral person?

I doubt most Christians see it the way you present it (despite your assertion in point 6).

[ForgedinHell]

1. Christianity laid the ground work for the Holocaust to happen with centuries of anti-semitism.

It's probably hard to argue that Christianity has, historically at least, sewn the seeds of anti-semitism.

2. That not only the nazis highest-ranking members, but the rank and file and the people who murdered Jews were predominantly Christians.

I think we need to be careful not to confuse cause and correlation here as they had other group characteristics as well.

3. That the nazis had full support from Christians in committing the murders, even following the end of the war. The Vatican, for example, set up the escape route for such infamous nazis as Dr. Mengele, and were hoping that world war III would start soon, so all Jews would be killed off.

Did they have support from a broad base of Christian's though? A lot of the people that fought the Nazi's also proclaimed themselves to be Christians as well.

4. The myth of Christianity that contains numerous anti-semitic passages, including the charge that Jews were Christ killers, and all Jews are responsible for the crime, demonized Jews to the point where their mass murder by Christians was considered moral.

This is evidence for point 1 and not a new charge though.

5. To this day, Christians continue to teach anti-semitism.

Can you elaborate on this?

6. To this day, the vast majority of Christians lie about their involvement in the Holocaust. This lie alone is immoral, as it makes another Holocaust more likely to occur, not less likely to occur.

The majority of Christians weren't alive during the holocaust so they couldn't have been involved in it.

So, my charge is basically this: How can someone who willingly signs up as a member of a group that slaughtered millions, including the murder of Jewish babies by tossing them, while alive, into fires, be a moral person?

I doubt most Christians see it the way you present it (despite your assertion in point 6).

It is not hard to show Christianity laid the ground work for the Holocaust. The fact you would make the statement just shows how the Christians have managed to avoid culpability for their crimes. In fact, I don't think there is a single thing the nazis did to the Jews that Christians had done to the Jews for centuries. Hitler even admitted to being influenced by Karl Lueger, the leader of the Vatican-supported antisemitic Christian social movement of Austria. There were in fact a lot of Christian anti-semitic parties in Germany. Germany, at the time, had the highest percentage of Christians per capita than any nation. Pius XII never put Mein Kampf on the list of banned books, but did put the Talmud on the list in 1555. Martin Luther wrote in his book, On the Jews and Their Lies, that the Jews should all be murdered off. Himmler often referred to Luther. Luther was often quoted in the anti-semitic paper Der Sturmer. The nazis simply took advantage of centuries of Christian lies against the Jews, and with the help of millions of Christians, Catholic and Protestant alike, murdered them.

[ForgedinHell]

1. Christianity laid the ground work for the Holocaust to happen with centuries of anti-semitism.

It's probably hard to argue that Christianity has, historically at least, sewn the seeds of anti-semitism.

2. That not only the nazis highest-ranking members, but the rank and file and the people who murdered Jews were predominantly Christians.

I think we need to be careful not to confuse cause and correlation here as they had other group characteristics as well.

3. That the nazis had full support from Christians in committing the murders, even following the end of the war. The Vatican, for example, set up the escape route for such infamous nazis as Dr. Mengele, and were hoping that world war III would start soon, so all Jews would be killed off.

Did they have support from a broad base of Christian's though? A lot of the people that fought the Nazi's also proclaimed themselves to be Christians as well.

4. The myth of Christianity that contains numerous anti-semitic passages, including the charge that Jews were Christ killers, and all Jews are responsible for the crime, demonized Jews to the point where their mass murder by Christians was considered moral.

This is evidence for point 1 and not a new charge though.

5. To this day, Christians continue to teach anti-semitism.

Can you elaborate on this?

6. To this day, the vast majority of Christians lie about their involvement in the Holocaust. This lie alone is immoral, as it makes another Holocaust more likely to occur, not less likely to occur.

The majority of Christians weren't alive during the holocaust so they couldn't have been involved in it.

So, my charge is basically this: How can someone who willingly signs up as a member of a group that slaughtered millions, including the murder of Jewish babies by tossing them, while alive, into fires, be a moral person?

I doubt most Christians see it the way you present it (despite your assertion in point 6).

With respect to your claim that Christians fought against the nazis, did they? Americans fought against the nazis, but not because they were Christians, and not because of any concern for the Jews. Same with the other nations, like Britain. The Vatican turned Jews in who had converted to Christianity. The Vatican was the first to recognize the nazi regime, and among the last organization, if not the last, to recognize Israel. The Vatican cooperated with the nazis in killing Jews, stealing their money, and the Vatican did its best to protect nazis from prosecution following the war.

Christians murdered people for marrying a Jew. Why? The charge was beastiality. Since Jews were not people, marrying one meant one was having sex with an animal, a crime punishable by death. The Jews were murdered during the black plague. Why? Because, although they were dying off as much as the Christians, they were evil devil spawn who must have brought on the plague. The talmud was taken from Jewish homes and burned in mass bonfires. Jews were assigned to ghettos. They were prohibited from getting educations, pursuing certain work, they would periodicially have their villages destroyed and their children slaughtered because they were Christ killers. If you think this did not give the nazis their basis for attacking Jews, then why did Hitler reference Christianity so much in speech after speech and in Mein Kampf? Do you really think the nazis just magically out of thin air created anti-semitism? You can't do that. That type of hatred takes centuries to build up to, and that's what happened.

The fact you have admitted Christians "see it differently," which just means they are lying about what happened, proves my point. Christians are immoral. One cannot join an organization that slaughetered millions for no reason and claim to be moral.

[ForgedinHell]

1. Christianity laid the ground work for the Holocaust to happen with centuries of anti-semitism.

It's probably hard to argue that Christianity has, historically at least, sewn the seeds of anti-semitism.

2. That not only the nazis highest-ranking members, but the rank and file and the people who murdered Jews were predominantly Christians.

I think we need to be careful not to confuse cause and correlation here as they had other group characteristics as well.

3. That the nazis had full support from Christians in committing the murders, even following the end of the war. The Vatican, for example, set up the escape route for such infamous nazis as Dr. Mengele, and were hoping that world war III would start soon, so all Jews would be killed off.

Did they have support from a broad base of Christian's though? A lot of the people that fought the Nazi's also proclaimed themselves to be Christians as well.

4. The myth of Christianity that contains numerous anti-semitic passages, including the charge that Jews were Christ killers, and all Jews are responsible for the crime, demonized Jews to the point where their mass murder by Christians was considered moral.

This is evidence for point 1 and not a new charge though.

5. To this day, Christians continue to teach anti-semitism.

Can you elaborate on this?

6. To this day, the vast majority of Christians lie about their involvement in the Holocaust. This lie alone is immoral, as it makes another Holocaust more likely to occur, not less likely to occur.

The majority of Christians weren't alive during the holocaust so they couldn't have been involved in it.

So, my charge is basically this: How can someone who willingly signs up as a member of a group that slaughtered millions, including the murder of Jewish babies by tossing them, while alive, into fires, be a moral person?

I doubt most Christians see it the way you present it (despite your assertion in point 6).

As one example of ongoing Christian anti-semitism, just take a look at 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15. There it is claimed that Jews are 'hostile to all men." Not only is this not true, as well as the charge of being Christ killers, but this scriptural writing is a documented fraud. Therefore, Christians could easily avoid teaching people this hate against Jews, not just on moral grounds, but on the grounds that the writing is historically illegit. Instead, Christians happily teach the anti-semitism. Maybe I should start a religion saying "Christians are hostile to all men," and see how Christians like it?

[John]

1. Christianity laid the ground work for the Holocaust to happen with centuries of anti-semitism.

It's probably hard to argue that Christianity has, historically at least, sewn the seeds of anti-semitism.

Oops, just noticed that I meant to write that it was hard to argue against.

[John]

With respect to your claim that Christians fought against the nazis, did they? Americans fought against the nazis, but not because they were Christians, and not because of any concern for the Jews.

Whatever the motives it remains that they were Christians and I mentioned it because it's the same group characteristic that you've attributed to those who perpetrated the Holocaust. I'm only pointing out that you need to demonstrate that Christianity was the cause of the holocaust rather than a coincidental group characteristic of those who perpetrated it. I also recognise that you're attempting to make that case but I think the "they were Christian" argument isn't sufficient.

I don't think it's particularly useful to blame all Christians for the holocaust anyway for the old reason that when everyone is to blame no one is. However, whether the holocaust was the inevitable result of Christianity is an interesting question especially as the holocaust has been called the inevitable conclusion of the Enlightenment.

[reasonvemotion]

Do you know the meaning of Christian. It means thou shalt not kill. Why does ForgedinHell try to couple christianity with the holocaust. None of the people involved in the holocaust were christian. Men make their own decisions and the holocaust was decided by a man or a number of men. There have been other genocides. The Rwandan genocide. "In just three months, an estimated 800000 people were massacred in the Rwandan genocide of 1994". The genocide of the aborginal people, "which events were generally not recorded but veiled in secrecy due to fear of possible legal consequences, especially following the Mya Creek Massacre in 1838 on the 26 January, also known as the Slaughterhouse Creek". It is in man's nature, we are corrupt and responsible for our own decisions. The holocaust is not an isolated event, other nations' have suffered genocide and it has nothing to do with christianity. Hitler was responsible for the holocaust.

[ForgedinHell]

With respect to your claim that Christians fought against the nazis, did they? Americans fought against the nazis, but not because they were Christians, and not because of any concern for the Jews.

Whatever the motives it remains that they were Christians and I mentioned it because it's the same group characteristic that you've attributed to those who perpetrated the Holocaust. I'm only pointing out that you need to demonstrate that Christianity was the cause of the holocaust rather than a coincidental group characteristic of those who perpetrated it. I also recognise that you're attempting to make that case but I think the "they were Christian" argument isn't sufficient.

I don't think it's particularly useful to blame all Christians for the holocaust anyway for the old reason that when everyone is to blame no one is. However, whether the holocaust was the inevitable result of Christianity is an interesting question especially as the holocaust has been called the inevitable conclusion of the Enlightenment.

Why would Hitler repeatedly mention that he was doing the work of Christ, by killing Jews, if Christianity had nothing to do with it? Why did the nazis quote from Luther, if Christianity had nothing to do with it? Why did the Vatican back the nazis, if Christianity had nothing to do with it? Why was St. Augustine a raving anti-semite? "The Jews held [Jesus], the Jews insulted Him, the Jews bound Him, they crowned him with thorns, they dishonored Him by spitting upon Him, they hung Him upon a tree, they pierced Him with a lance...." St. Augustine. The writing does not state, "some Jews did...." but "the Jews did...." The distinction is that according to Augustine, all Jews are Christ Killers. You don't think the nazis took that to heart?

In January 1940 Pope Pius XII instructed Vatican Radio to protest the nazi treatment of the Poles. He was absolutely silent on the far worse treatment of the Jews.

But, how about this: The leadership of the Protestant Evangelical Church, of Germany, issued an offical announcement in December 1941. The proclamation stated that the Jews were incapable of being saved by baptism due to their "racial constitution," that they were "responsible for the war," and were "born enemies of the world and Germany." Now, you think that type of official Christian announcement was not what the nazis used? The Christian anti-semitism was rampant, and the nazis used it to kill Jews. It was a Christian assault on the Jews.

[ForgedinHell]

Do you know the meaning of Christian. It means thou shalt not kill. Why does ForgedinHell try to couple christianity with the holocaust. None of the people involved in the holocaust were christian. Men make their own decisions and the holocaust was decided by a man or a number of men. There have been other genocides. The Rwandan genocide. "In just three months, an estimated 800000 people were massacred in the Rwandan genocide of 1994". The genocide of the aborginal people, "which events were generally not recorded but veiled in secrecy due to fear of possible legal consequences, especially following the Mya Creek Massacre in 1838 on the 26 January, also known as the Slaughterhouse Creek". It is in man's nature, we are corrupt and responsible for our own decisions. The holocaust is not an isolated event, other nations' have suffered genocide and it has nothing to do with christianity. Hitler was responsible for the holocaust.

Sorry, but your word games are not cutting it with me. The BTK killer is a Christian who killed. Now, if you want to talk about Christians who killed, how about we just take a look at the leader of the first crusade? The goal was to kill off the entire Jewish race, and it was not from want of trying that the effort failed.

The Holocaust was run by Christians, you liar. Hitler, a Catholic. He was never excommunicated. The list of top-ranking Catholic nazis, none of whom were excommunicated, not only include Hitler, but the following: Goebbels, Himmler, Martin Bormann (commander of the Auschwitz death camp), Rudolf Hoss and Muller.

And, I see you are being a good Christian apologist by saying that since other genocides have occurred, the Holocaust was no big deal. Well, actually, the Holocaust was unique, and not to be universalized, and thus, trivialized. The campaign sought to kill all Jews, everywhere. The crime for the Jew was having been born. And before the Jews were killed, they wanted them broken, humiliated, to be deprived of their humanity.

Thanks for being the 2nd Christian to come here, lie about Christian guilt, and prove my point. You are immoral.

[John]

Thanks for being the 2nd Christian to come here, lie about Christian guilt, and prove my point. You are immoral.

Who was the first?

[reasonvemotion]

Thanks for being the 2nd Christian to come here, lie about Christian guilt, and prove my point. You are immoral.

That is my point. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, a Jew. It is a label, what one does proves whether they are what that label says. To be a Christian you cannot exterminate people en masse. Does the Jew agree with that?

Immoral. What are you talking about? According to the Scriptures, the jews were punished for not being obediant. I didnt write the Scriptures, I am quoting them, as you quote the Torah. No doubt the Jews have an explanation to discredit that Chapter in the Bible.

I am not a christian, are you a jew?

[ForgedinHell]

Thanks for being the 2nd Christian to come here, lie about Christian guilt, and prove my point. You are immoral.

That is my point. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, a Jew. It is a label, what one does proves whether they are what that label says. To be a Christian you cannot exterminate people en masse. Does the Jew agree with that?

Immoral. What are you talking about? According to the Scriptures, the jews were punished for not being obediant. I didnt write the Scriptures, I am quoting them, as you quote the Torah. No doubt the Jews have an explanation to discredit that Chapter in the Bible.

I am not a christian, are you a jew?

I am a human being. What else do you think I would be? You sure seem like an apologetic Christian.

Your definition of a Christian is meaningless. A christian is someone who accepts jesus as savior. Now, such a person can go out and rape, murder and pillage, like Charles Manson, the BTK killer, and Jeffrey Dahlmer, they were all Christians. If you change the definition and say, "wait, since they did wrong, they can't be a Christian," then you are changing the term to render it meaningless. If a Christian will always be defined as being consistent with someone who does good, then it becomes irrelevant that a Christian is defined as someone who believes in Jesus as a savior god.