I was wrong Immanuel Can

[Gary Childress]

I was wrong for being abusive and trying to win an argument through forcefulness. I was thinking in terms of Moral Emotivism (ala AJ Ayer) that simply yelling "boo" or "hurray" might be an acceptable form of moral argumentation. However, upon further inspection, I suppose it's not an adequate means of argumentation. No matter how much I dislike a statement someone makes, I suppose all statements ultimately rest on their truth value not on their morally pleasing or unpleasing aspects. Perhaps the same applies to theology and religion.

[Immanuel Can]

I was wrong for being abusive and trying to win an argument through forcefulness. I was thinking in terms of Moral Emotivism (ala AJ Ayer) that simply yelling "boo" or "hurray" might be an acceptable form of moral argumentation. However, upon further inspection, I suppose it's not an adequate means of argumentation. No matter how much I dislike a statement someone makes, I suppose all statements ultimately rest on their truth value not on their morally pleasing or unpleasing aspects. Perhaps the same applies to theology and religion.

That's very big of you to admit, Gary. Well done.

I'm not here for a "win." I'm here to find out what people have to say, things that might be challenging to my own views. That being said, I'm here to see also what they have by way of response, if I find a hole in their logic or pattern of argument, so it's not as if I'm set to accept blithely any weak or questionable argument my interlocutors may float. I want to test what I hear, and present the best countercase I can, so as to see what shakes out of all that.

I'm also not here to humiliate or accuse you, or anybody else. I think that people realizing that God not only exists, but is relevantly present and caring about people who are struggling and suffering is about the best news one can give anybody. We don't do well without God. Life is lonely, confusing and hard for those who think of themselves as orphaned, unloved and unwanted, stumbling along a path of life that is nasty, brutish and short, with no purpose or hope. If I can convince anybody to entertain the possibility that God is there, and that God loves them, and that life has meaning and future hope, then I see that as a service to them, as well. They may not always see it that way, and that's okay; that's how I see it.

So I don't mind being challenged, contradicted, pushed, or otherwise opposed. When interlocutors fall to ad hominems, I find that boring and irrelevant -- though as a Christian, I also expect it. In return, I try to make a practice of NOT abusing my interlocutors, even when they become irate and say things that perhaps, in a more considered moment they might not. But just as you would not sit by and let one of your loved ones be endlessly insulted, so too there are limits to what I can tolerate when the abuse is directed to the Lord. And I know that those who engage in such language are also engaged in self-harm, since God will honour their decision to reject HIm, if that's what they insist upon. That's how freedom works, after all; freedom always comes with a responsibility to use that freedom rightly. As in life, so here. And I do not wish to become an occasion of harm coming to those who are talking to me...especially those who would position themselves as adversaries.

Anyway, it's big of you to apologize. I accept, of course. And if, in anything I have said, I have come across as unkind to you, I likewise apologize.

[mickthinks]

I'm not here for a "win." I'm here to find out what people have to say, things that might be challenging to my own views.

Here is Manny cosplaying an enlightened seeker after truth. No one should be taken in. He is nothing of the kind.

he gave you a provisional yes

What in Christ's name is a provisional "yes" if it isn't a "yes"?

It seems to me to be worth exploring for the benefit of everyone here who has tried to reason with Manny in the past, exactly why it's a waste of time. It's a waste of time because Manny is so intellectually dishonest that he cannot answer a straight question about his beliefs with a "yes" or a "no".

There is no conversation with a man like that. All we can do is demonstrate his emptiness.

(more here)