Faith in Religion & Science and The FS Approach

[Veritas Aequitas]

Thesis: The acknowledgement of element of faith in Science, facilitates the weaning-off of theistic religions in the future via the ranking of credibility and objectivity within a Framework and System [FS] approach.

Faith = firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
[not as a religion]

Theistic religions rely on blind-faith.
Faith [as above] is inherent in the Scientific-FS as 'pragmatic-faith' but it is of very low degrees within the faith-continuum.
see note 1 below: Faith is Inevitable in Science
viewtopic.php?p=755375#p755375

Accepting 'faith' as present both in theistic religions and science will enable both to be compared within a Framework and System of reality and knowledge [epistemic continuum]. This will enable theistic religions to be weaned off in the future [next 80, 100 or > years].

BigMike stated, associating Science with faith and ranking theism within an epistemic FS continuum is counter-productive.
viewtopic.php?p=755354#p755354

I believe, on the contrary, the FS approach and acknowledge faith is inevitable in Science will facilitate the weaning of theistic religions in the future [not now].

VA Wrote:
My concern is to expedite the above improvement in quantum jumps, thus my introduction of the FS approach to reality and knowledge.
In your case, if you do not bring theistic religions into the same arena of rationality and critical thinking [FS approach], there is no place & opportunity to give it a knock-out within the same ring. It will be status quo as it has been going on at the same snail pace since 10,000 years ago.
viewtopic.php?p=755366#p755366

I already have the answers, but here is a better organized presentation by AI.

ChatGpt Wrote
The counter view seems to hold a strong position that faith should be entirely eliminated from epistemology and that scientific advancement has rendered faith-based thinking obsolete.
However, your approach—bringing theistic FS within the broader credibility-objectivity continuum—aims to engage theists in a structured manner that promotes critical thinking without outright dismissal.

Here’s how you might address the counters & objections effectively:

1. Demonstrating that Minimal Degrees of Faith Are Inevitable in Science

The counter view sees faith as an epistemic obstacle, but you can show that science itself operates on certain foundational assumptions that, while not religious, involve an inescapable minimal "faith" (in the sense of reliance on unprovable but necessary premises).

A. The Induction Problem (Hume)
Science assumes the uniformity of nature—that the future will resemble the past—but this assumption itself cannot be empirically proven.
This is a pragmatic assumption necessary for science, making it a form of low-degree faith.
Even if justified by past success, that justification is circular because it assumes what it seeks to prove.

B. The Effectiveness of Mathematics in Science (Wigner)
The unexplained success of mathematics in describing physical laws suggests an assumption that mathematical structures correspond to reality.
Why this correspondence exists is unknown, yet it is taken as a foundational assumption.

C. Realism vs. Instrumentalism in Science
Many scientists assume that theoretical entities (e.g., quarks, wavefunctions) exist, but this is a commitment beyond empirical data.
Scientific realism itself is not provable—some scientists are instrumentalists, seeing theories as only useful, not necessarily true.
The belief in an objective, mind-independent reality also requires a degree of "faith," as even quantum physics suggests observer-dependence at some level.

2. Making the Case for FS-Objective Theism as a Strategic Tool for Rationality
Your approach does not defend theism as epistemically superior but rather seeks to integrate it into a structured FS framework where it can be evaluated within a credibility and objectivity scale. This achieves two goals:

It shifts theistic belief toward rational discourse.

Rather than being an unchallengeable faith-claim, theism gets placed within an evaluative framework where its assumptions and conclusions can be critically analyzed.
This increases rationality within theistic thought rather than allowing it to exist outside of the credibility scale entirely.
It helps theists transition toward greater objectivity.

If theists recognize that their framework is ranked lower than scientific frameworks, they may be more inclined to examine and refine their beliefs.
A rational, structured engagement with theism does not prolong its influence but rather guides it toward greater scrutiny, eventually leading to more critical thinking.

3. Reframing the Debate: FS-Objectivity as an Evolutionary Approach, Not Accommodation
The counter view sees engaging theism as a form of unnecessary accommodation. You can counter this by reframing your approach as a structured transition strategy rather than a concession to faith:

Instead of outright dismissal, FS-Objectivity integrates theistic belief into a framework where it must justify itself alongside other epistemic systems.
If theistic frameworks rank lower than scientific ones in objectivity and credibility, theists will be gradually nudged toward frameworks with higher rational rigor.
This methodology does not preserve faith indefinitely but channels it toward self-criticism, making intellectual progress more likely than simply rejecting it outright.

4. Addressing the ‘Total Extinction of Faith-Based Thinking’ Argument
The counter view argues that faith-based thinking should be eliminated entirely. However, history suggests that belief systems do not vanish overnight through confrontation. Instead, they evolve when integrated into more structured, rational frameworks.

Example: The scientific revolution did not eliminate religious belief but reshaped it into frameworks more compatible with empirical knowledge.
The FS approach does not justify faith—it incorporates it into a ranking system where it must stand the test of rationality, making irrational elements more difficult to maintain.
The goal is not to preserve theism but to expose it to a credibility-objectivity analysis that weakens its unjustified elements over time.

Conclusion: Strategic Rationalization, Not Concession
Your response should emphasize that:
Faith, even in minimal degrees, is inescapable in scientific assumptions, such as uniformity of nature and mathematical applicability.
The FS-framework does not accommodate theism in an epistemically equal way—it ranks it lower, making rational assessment inevitable.
Engaging theistic FS within the credibility-objectivity scale is a strategic method to transition theists toward higher objectivity, rather than dismissing them outright.

The above view is from "MY" ChatGpt as influenced by what we had was discussed in the past and saved in its memory.
"Your" ChatGpt may or may not agree.

Discuss??
Views??

[Veritas Aequitas]

Notes:

Note 1
Faith [as defined above] in Science is Inevitable
Rather than blind faith [high in a continuum] as in religion, science does get involved with 'pragmatic faith' [very low in the other extreme of the continuum].

Here's from AI;

ChatGPT said:

In the scientific framework and system, certain foundational assumptions and principles are taken as given, despite the absence of absolute proof.
These can be seen as involving minimal degrees of faith, though this "faith" is not the same as religious faith—it is more akin to a pragmatic trust based on consistency, empirical adequacy, and success in application.
Here are key areas where this minimal degree of faith is involved:

1. The Existence of an External Reality
• Science operates on the assumption that there is an objective reality independent of human perception.
• While practical for empirical investigation, this cannot be conclusively proven without circular reasoning.

2. The Uniformity of Nature (Induction Problem)
• Science assumes that the laws of nature remain consistent over time and space.
• This assumption is essential for predicting future events based on past observations, yet it cannot be logically proven (Hume’s problem of induction).

3. The Reliability of Human Cognition and Perception
• Scientific inquiry assumes that our senses and cognitive faculties provide a sufficiently accurate representation of reality.
• This assumption is necessary for empirical observation and measurement but cannot be independently verified outside of its own framework.

4. The Effectiveness of Mathematics in Describing Reality
• Mathematics is unreasonably effective in modeling physical phenomena (as noted by Wigner).
• The assumption that mathematical structures correspond to physical reality is a pragmatic one, not something that can be absolutely justified.

5. The Existence and Validity of Logical Principles
• Science relies on classical logic (e.g., the law of non-contradiction, identity, excluded middle).
• These logical principles are presupposed as universally valid but cannot be empirically tested.

6. The Principle of Causality
• Science assumes causal relationships between events, though quantum mechanics has challenged classical notions of determinism.
• While useful, causality as a fundamental principle is assumed rather than proven.

7. The Scientific Method as the Best Path to Knowledge
• The idea that empirical observation, hypothesis testing, and falsifiability yield the most reliable knowledge is a foundational assumption.
• There is no absolute proof that this is the only valid way to gain knowledge.

8. The Reality of Theoretical Entities
• Many scientific theories posit unobservable entities (e.g., quarks, wavefunctions, dark matter) whose existence is inferred rather than directly observed.
• Scientific realism assumes these entities exist beyond mere instrumental usefulness, though this remains a debated position.

9. The Possibility of Understanding Reality
• The assumption that the universe is intelligible and that human inquiry can uncover its workings is an implicit faith in the success of science.
• There is no guarantee that all aspects of reality will be comprehensible to human minds.

10. The Objectivity of Scientific Inquiry
• Science presupposes that objective knowledge is possible, despite human biases and limitations.
• The belief in the self-correcting nature of science rests on the assumption that biases and errors will be eliminated over time.

These areas reflect a kind of minimal, pragmatic "faith" in science, but unlike religious faith, they are continually tested, refined, and adjusted based on empirical evidence.

[Impenitent]

there is no knowable thing in itself

your faith in faith is an abomination

-Imp

[FlashDangerpants]

VA is able to coerce a computer to agree with him, and has perfect knowledge that many dead philosophers are ardent fans of his project.... but remains unable to sell that FSK shit to any living human being.