Virtues Be Independent of Morality & Ethics

[Veritas Aequitas]

I proposed the Philosophy of Virtues to be Independent but complementary to Morality and Ethics.

A virtue (Latin: virtus) is a trait of excellence, including traits that may be moral, social, or intellectual. The cultivation and refinement of virtue is held to be the "good of humanity" and thus is valued as an end purpose of life or a foundational principle of being.
WIKI

Since virtues include traits that may be moral, social, or intellectual, to deal with virtue within morality proper would be quite messy and that can hinder efficiency in moral progress.
I have a list of 120 virtues [see next post] and to separate those virtues that are to be related to morality & ethics proper would be messy.

As such, to promote efficiency, morality & ethics should be confined to moral elements that are non-virtuous.
In this case we have to define what elements are solely to be dealt within morality & ethics, i.e. evil acts.
Whatever is defined as a virtue [see below] e.g. compassion, honesty, fair, etc. where appropriate will complement morality.

Kant is one philosopher who differentiates "virtue" from "morality & ethics proper" which maintaining that virtue is to be a positive complement to morality.
Reference: TBA

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[Veritas Aequitas]

List of Virtues
Covering the subject of moral, social, or intellectual, etc.

https://www.virtuescience.com/virtuelist.html

Acceptance: Accountability: Ambition: Assertiveness: Beauty: Benevolence: Bravery: Caring: Charity: Chastity: Caution: Cleanliness: Commitment: Compassion: Confidence: Consideration: Contentment: Cooperation: Courage: Courtesy: Creativity: Curiosity: Defiance: Dependability: Detachment: Determination: Devotion: Diligence: Discernment: Discretion: Discipline: Eloquence: Empathy: Enthusiasm: Excellence: Faith: Faithfulness: Flexibility: Focus: Forbearance: Forgiveness: Fortitude: Friendliness: Frugality: Generosity: Gentleness: Grace: Gratitude: Helpfulness: Honesty: Honor: Hope: Humbleness: Humility: Humor: Idealism: Integrity: Impartiality: Industry: Innocence: Joyfulness: Justice: Kindness: Knowledge: Liberality: Love: Loyalty: Magnanimity: Majesty: Meekness: Mercy: Moderation: Modesty: Obedience: Openness: Orderliness: Patience: Peace: Perseverance: Persistence: Piety: Prudence: Punctuality: Purity: Purposefulness: Reliability: Resoluteness: Resourcefulness: Respect: Responsibility: Restraint: Reverence: Righteousness: Selflessness: Self Sacrifice: Service: Sensitivity: Silence: Simplicity: Sincerity: Sobriety: Spontaneity: Steadfastness: Strength: Tact: Temperance: Thankfulness: Thrift: Tolerance: Toughness: Tranquility: Trust: Trustworthiness: Truthfulness: Understanding: Unity: Vitality: Wisdom: Wonder: Zeal:
[Total 120]

............
List of Virtue [2]
https://www.virtuesforlife.com/virtues-list/

Acceptance: Assertiveness: Authenticity: Beauty: Caring: Cleanliness: Commitment: Compassion: Confidence: Consideration: Contentment: Cooperation: Courage: Creativity: Detachment: Determination: Dignity: Encouragement: Enthusiasm: Ethical: Excellence: Fairness: Faith: Flexibility: Forgiveness: Friendliness: Generosity: Gentleness: Graciousness: Gratitude: Harmonious: Helpfulness: Honesty: Honor: Hope: Humility: Idealism: Integrity: Imaginative: Joyfulness: Justice: Kindness: Love: Loyalty: Moderation: Modesty: Optimistic: Orderliness: Passionate: Patience: Peace: Perseverance: Preparedness: Purposefulness: Reliability: Respect: Responsibility: Reverence: Self-discipline: Service: Sincerity: Tact: Temperate: Tenacious: Thankfulness: Tolerance: Trust: Truthfulness: Understanding: Unity: Visionary: Wisdom: Wonder: [73]

What is in list 2 and not in list 1 will add to the 120 in list 1, e.g. 'visionary' in list 2.

I believe there are more we can add to the above.

The main point here is the two list of virtues are sufficient to support my point that the concept of virtue cover a very extensive range of human behaviors and to mix it up with Morality & Ethics would be very messy and inefficient.

Thus for efficiency and Occam's sake, it would be wise to exclude 'virtue' from 'morality and ethics proper' to facilitate and expedite moral progress within humanity in the FUTURE.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Notes:

Additional list of virtues:
Adaptability: Altruism: Awe: Balance: Charisma: Chivalry: Civility: Composure: Conviction: Equanimity: Fraternity: Independence: Magnanimity: Mindfulness: Resilience: Self-awareness: Self-respect: Solidarity: Stoicism: Vigilance:

[FlashDangerpants]

I would like to claim the honour of being first to LOL at this, the worst and most specious bullshit VA has yet written.

[Veritas Aequitas]

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At present, I am confident 99% of those who write and discuss Morality and Ethics, mixed up Morality, Ethics and Virtue.
As far as I know, it is only Kant who treat Virtue as independent yet complementary with morality and ethics.

In the spirit of philosophical discussion, anyone disagrees with my proposals in the OP?
If disagrees, why do you think it is not tenable nor feasible?

[Atla]

I would like to claim the honour of being first to LOL at this, the worst and most specious bullshit VA has yet written.

If I recall correctly, you already said this a few times this year. Just how low can VA go?

[FlashDangerpants]

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Your reason for having these lists of virtues is supposedly for the sake of "efficiency", you say so twice in the OP and yet your lists don't include "efficiency" as a virtue. Which shows that your lists lack the virtue of adequacy... which is also absent from your inadequate and inefficient lists.

You included "ethical" in your list and will need soon to include "circular".

You are the wrong person to list the following in your selection of virtues, none of these applies to you or your behaviour at this forum: Humility, Joyfulness, Modesty, Friendliness, Graciousness, Dignity, Tact, Impartiality, Spontaneity, Diligence, Liberality, Courtesy.

You can have Chastity though. You probably overflow with that virtue.

[FlashDangerpants]

I would like to claim the honour of being first to LOL at this, the worst and most specious bullshit VA has yet written.

If I recall correctly, you already said this a few times this year. Just how low can VA go?

Today he published his wildly absurd list of "virtues", which includes Preparedness and Diligence but not efficiency, even though he recommends this list on the basis of the supposed virtue of efficiency, thus making a mockery of preparedness and diligence.

One assumes there are no new depths for him to excavate, but as you note, I have thought he reached rock bottom before and have been outdone. He lacks most other talents, but downward propulsion in the face of astonishing odds is something at which he genuinely excels.

[Atla]

I would like to claim the honour of being first to LOL at this, the worst and most specious bullshit VA has yet written.

If I recall correctly, you already said this a few times this year. Just how low can VA go?

Today he published his wildly absurd list of "virtues", which includes Preparedness and Diligence but not efficiency, even though he recommends this list on the basis of the supposed virtue of efficiency, thus making a mockery of preparedness and diligence.

One assumes there are no new depths for him to excavate, but as you note, I have thought he reached rock bottom before and have been outdone. He lacks most other talents, but downward propulsion in the face of astonishing odds is something at which he genuinely excels.

I actually like that he can reach lows that defy understanding, I thought such lows shouldn't be possible but he reaches them anyway. He opens my eyes to new possibilities.

I watch his struggle, his sad downward spiral without escape, and am compelled to feel a modicum of sympathy out of good-heartedness, but sympathy and good-heartedness aren't virtues either so I guess I won't.

[Veritas Aequitas]

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Your reason for having these lists of virtues is supposedly for the sake of "efficiency", you say so twice in the OP and yet your lists don't include "efficiency" as a virtue. Which shows that your lists lack the virtue of adequacy... which is also absent from your inadequate and inefficient lists.

You included "ethical" in your list and will need soon to include "circular".

You are the wrong person to list the following in your selection of virtues, none of these applies to you or your behaviour at this forum: Humility, Joyfulness, Modesty, Friendliness, Graciousness, Dignity, Tact, Impartiality, Spontaneity, Diligence, Liberality, Courtesy.

You can have Chastity though. You probably overflow with that virtue.

Dogmatic as usual,

These virtues can cover for 'efficiency'.
"Excellence" implies striving to do things well, often efficiently, to achieve high-quality outcomes.
Diligence: Reflecting perseverance and careful work, which often leads to efficient results.
Resourcefulness: Involves finding efficient solutions, especially in challenging situations.
Prudence: Suggests wise decision-making, often leading to efficient use of resources and effort.

The above are from the links provided above.
If 'efficiency' is valid, then we can add to the listing.

I believe there are more we can add.
Example: Adaptability: Altruism: Awe: Balance: Charisma: Chivalry: Civility: Composure: Conviction: Equanimity: Fraternity: Independence: Magnanimity: Mindfulness: Resilience: Self-awareness: Self-respect: Solidarity: Stoicism: Vigilance:
There could be more.

If 'ethical' is circular, we can exclude it for this OP.

The main point here is the two list of virtues are sufficient to support my point that the concept of virtue cover a very extensive range of human behaviors and to mix it up with Morality & Ethics would be very messy and inefficient.

Therefore it is more efficient [Occam] to deal with Morality & Ethics by excluding 'virtues' as independent and complementary.

[FlashDangerpants]

Discuss??
Views??

Your reason for having these lists of virtues is supposedly for the sake of "efficiency", you say so twice in the OP and yet your lists don't include "efficiency" as a virtue. Which shows that your lists lack the virtue of adequacy... which is also absent from your inadequate and inefficient lists.

You included "ethical" in your list and will need soon to include "circular".

You are the wrong person to list the following in your selection of virtues, none of these applies to you or your behaviour at this forum: Humility, Joyfulness, Modesty, Friendliness, Graciousness, Dignity, Tact, Impartiality, Spontaneity, Diligence, Liberality, Courtesy.

You can have Chastity though. You probably overflow with that virtue.

Dogmatic as usual,

These virtues can cover for 'efficiency'.
"Excellence" implies striving to do things well, often efficiently, to achieve high-quality outcomes.
Diligence: Reflecting perseverance and careful work, which often leads to efficient results.
Resourcefulness: Involves finding efficient solutions, especially in challenging situations.
Prudence: Suggests wise decision-making, often leading to efficient use of resources and effort.

Why bother with any of it then? All of those can just as sensibly be replaced with "good" and you don't need the list at all.

The above are from the links provided above.
If 'efficiency' is valid, then we can add to the listing.

Why did you want your list to be 120 things? Is "120" a good number for some reason? Is that more important? What is your working rationale for any of this junk?

I believe there are more we can add.
Example: Adaptability: Altruism: Awe: Balance: Charisma: Chivalry: Civility: Composure: Conviction: Equanimity: Fraternity: Independence: Magnanimity: Mindfulness: Resilience: Self-awareness: Self-respect: Solidarity: Stoicism: Vigilance:
There could be more.

What do you mean "there could be more" ?.... of course there could be more, there is no actual end to an arbitrary list. Your obsession with making and ordering lists blinds you to this obvious fact.

If 'ethical' is circular, we can exclude it for this OP.

I was making a joke at your expense. There is no structure at all to your thinking and you aren't presenting any form of argument in that rambling OP. You have nothing to form a circle out of. But if you have a proper rationale for manufacturing these weird lists, you shouldn't need ad-hoc pruning to keep them correct.

The main point here is the two list of virtues are sufficient to support my point that the concept of virtue cover a very extensive range of human behaviors and to mix it up with Morality & Ethics would be very messy and inefficient.

Morality and ethics is messy and inefficient. Your messy and inefficient efforts to impose order on it with foolish lists of inadequate nonsense can't change that.

Therefore it is more efficient [Occam] to deal with Morality & Ethics by excluding 'virtues' as independent and complementary.

Or... all you are doing is excluding things you find difficult only because you find them difficult and not because they have any intrinsic reason to be excluded. This is what you already did when you threw out out "good" and "bad" and "right" and "wrong" from your """morality-proper""" which now has nothing to do with actual morality.

You want to push the virtues and vices aside from thoughts about what it even is that makes them virtuous or vicious for the sake of convenience. Wishing for the virtues of laziness and shoddy half-assed work. It's not going to get you anywhere, this effort is nothing but new grounds to mock you.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Your reason for having these lists of virtues is supposedly for the sake of "efficiency", you say so twice in the OP and yet your lists don't include "efficiency" as a virtue. Which shows that your lists lack the virtue of adequacy... which is also absent from your inadequate and inefficient lists.

You included "ethical" in your list and will need soon to include "circular".

You are the wrong person to list the following in your selection of virtues, none of these applies to you or your behaviour at this forum: Humility, Joyfulness, Modesty, Friendliness, Graciousness, Dignity, Tact, Impartiality, Spontaneity, Diligence, Liberality, Courtesy.

You can have Chastity though. You probably overflow with that virtue.

Dogmatic as usual,

These virtues can cover for 'efficiency'.
"Excellence" implies striving to do things well, often efficiently, to achieve high-quality outcomes.
Diligence: Reflecting perseverance and careful work, which often leads to efficient results.
Resourcefulness: Involves finding efficient solutions, especially in challenging situations.
Prudence: Suggests wise decision-making, often leading to efficient use of resources and effort.

Why bother with any of it then? All of those can just as sensibly be replaced with "good" and you don't need the list at all.

The above are from the links provided above.
If 'efficiency' is valid, then we can add to the listing.

Why did you want your list to be 120 things? Is "120" a good number for some reason? Is that more important? What is your working rationale for any of this junk?

I believe there are more we can add.
Example: Adaptability: Altruism: Awe: Balance: Charisma: Chivalry: Civility: Composure: Conviction: Equanimity: Fraternity: Independence: Magnanimity: Mindfulness: Resilience: Self-awareness: Self-respect: Solidarity: Stoicism: Vigilance:
There could be more.

What do you mean "there could be more" ?.... of course there could be more, there is no actual end to an arbitrary list. Your obsession with making and ordering lists blinds you to this obvious fact.

If 'ethical' is circular, we can exclude it for this OP.

I was making a joke at your expense. There is no structure at all to your thinking and you aren't presenting any form of argument in that rambling OP. You have nothing to form a circle out of. But if you have a proper rationale for manufacturing these weird lists, you shouldn't need ad-hoc pruning to keep them correct.

The main point here is the two list of virtues are sufficient to support my point that the concept of virtue cover a very extensive range of human behaviors and to mix it up with Morality & Ethics would be very messy and inefficient.

Morality and ethics is messy and inefficient. Your messy and inefficient efforts to impose order on it with foolish lists of inadequate nonsense can't change that.

Therefore it is more efficient [Occam] to deal with Morality & Ethics by excluding 'virtues' as independent and complementary.

Or... all you are doing is excluding things you find difficult only because you find them difficult and not because they have any intrinsic reason to be excluded. This is what you already did when you threw out out "good" and "bad" and "right" and "wrong" from your """morality-proper""" which now has nothing to do with actual morality.

You want to push the virtues and vices aside from thoughts about what it even is that makes them virtuous or vicious for the sake of convenience. Wishing for the virtues of laziness and shoddy half-assed work. It's not going to get you anywhere, this effort is nothing but new grounds to mock you.

There you go with your immaturity in thought and looking for something to mock. The 120 is just the number ['replace function in word] from that link. I aim to have a near exhaustive listing regardless of the number.

It is because you are so narrow minded and bankrupt of ideas, childish & immature that you resort to mocking instead of recognizing your weaknesses.

Usually I don't present anything new without discussing with various AIs's critiques and convincing them with counter arguments my ideas are tenable and feasible.
Kant, one of the greatest philosopher, have had similar ideas of separating 'virtues' from morality-proper.

You will look very stupid with your immature mocking when my thesis is proven clearly and rationally to be tenable and very feasible.

Separating large complex wide ranging problems into manageable units is one of the most critical steps [a critical maxim] in Problem Solving, it is Occam.
Besides I am not ignoring "virtues" at all but keep those that are relevant in complementary to morality-ethics proper.

[Iwannaplato]

Thus for efficiency and Occam's sake, it would be wise to exclude 'virtue' from 'morality and ethics proper' to facilitate and expedite moral progress within humanity in the FUTURE.

So, you have seriously changed your earlier position. In the past you spoke about NOT having rules as the final goal of morality - which is quite different from Kant who is radically centered on doing one's duty and follow specific, very strict rules.

In the past you spoke about enhancing, for example, empathy through various methodologies, perhaps even technologies. IOW enhancing a virtue, so that people's moral behavior flows from their virtues rather than from follow moral rules.

But here the virtues - I'm sure compassion and empathy are in various forms in the lists of virtues are complements, but not central, and oddly here following Kant, who is utterly rule based. In the past you repeatedly contrasted your position with rule based moralities.

And of course it is fine to change your mind and evolve your positions. But I do wonder if you've noticed and then how you think about your earlier non deontological position.

[Iwannaplato]

Discuss??
Views??

Your reason for having these lists of virtues is supposedly for the sake of "efficiency", you say so twice in the OP and yet your lists don't include "efficiency" as a virtue. Which shows that your lists lack the virtue of adequacy... which is also absent from your inadequate and inefficient lists.

You included "ethical" in your list and will need soon to include "circular".

You are the wrong person to list the following in your selection of virtues, none of these applies to you or your behaviour at this forum: Humility, Joyfulness, Modesty, Friendliness, Graciousness, Dignity, Tact, Impartiality, Spontaneity, Diligence, Liberality, Courtesy.

You can have Chastity though. You probably overflow with that virtue.

But there were so many copy pasted virtues...how can you not see the value. None of us could have googled 'virtues.'
What, were you expecting the OP to actually argue something, present some coherent whole???
We have lists and addenda.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Thus for efficiency and Occam's sake, it would be wise to exclude 'virtue' from 'morality and ethics proper' to facilitate and expedite moral progress within humanity in the FUTURE.

So, you have seriously changed your earlier position. In the past you spoke about NOT having rules as the final goal of morality - which is quite different from Kant who is radically centered on doing one's duty and follow specific, very strict rules.

In the past you spoke about enhancing, for example, empathy through various methodologies, perhaps even technologies. IOW enhancing a virtue, so that people's moral behavior flows from their virtues rather than from follow moral rules.

But here the virtues - I'm sure compassion and empathy are in various forms in the lists of virtues are complements, but not central, and oddly here following Kant, who is utterly rule based. In the past you repeatedly contrasted your position with rule based moralities.

And of course it is fine to change your mind and evolve your positions. But I do wonder if you've noticed and then how you think about your earlier non deontological position.

Wrong interpretations.
I have not changed my position from previous at all.

Most who do not understand Kant interpret his morality as deontological rule-based like that of theology or some kind of imposed laws.

Rather, Kant's morality [deontological in the most general sense] is using categorical imperatives [rules] [inherent in all humans] as standard to guide and drive moral progress within the individual[s] and must never be imposed on any individual at all.

Virtues [empathy, etc.] are supporting subsets to the main faculty of morality, and they should be dealt separately but complementarily with morality & ethics.
A highly competent rational moral agent may not need the help of empathy, he is just is a natural moral person without the need for oxytocin and others.
At present and the near future we do not virtues to reinforce and support one's moral competence.