Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

The ultimate ground of Kant's Morality is traceable to Kant's Copernican Revolution:
Kant in CPR wrote:[Bxvi] Hitherto it has been assumed that all our Knowledge must conform to Objects.
But all attempts to extend our Knowledge of Objects by establishing something in regard to them a priori, by means of Concepts, have, on this assumption, ended in Failure.

We must therefore make trial whether we may not have more success in the tasks of Metaphysics, if we suppose that Objects must conform to our Knowledge.
This would agree better with what is desired, namely, that it should be Possible to have Knowledge of Objects a priori, determining something in regard to them prior to their being Given.
By 'concepts' Kant meant merely making inferences based on logic without any grounding to the human sensible element at all.
This approach has ended in terrible failures and Kant listed all the serious failures in the CPR.
E.g. based on the Ontological, Cosmological and Philosophical Theological argument theists could argue there is a God, i.e. there are creations [common sense and scientifically justified], so there must be a creator, given the complexity there must a a supreme creator.
But to date there is no convincing proof God exists are real except theists are only clinging to faith.

Since the conceptual [no sensible elements] approach has failed miserably, Kant proposed we make the attempt to justify what is the really-real object by grounding and conforming the object on the human constitution or conditions.
[Bxvii]We should then be proceeding precisely on the lines of Copernicus' primary Hypothesis
If Intuition [of Objects] must conform to the constitution of the Objects [as Things-in-themselves], I do not see how we could know anything of the latter [the Objects as Things-in-Themselves] a priori
but if the Object (as Object of the Senses) must conform to the constitution of our Faculty of Intuition, I have no difficulty in conceiving such a possibility. [as Object of the Senses]
In the above, Kant was stating if we focus on the objects as things-in-themselves, it is impossible to know them as things-in-themselves.
By the end of the CPR, Kant had demonstrated the things-in-themselves which are absolute mind-independent are illusory.

Kant then proposed his Copernican Revolution, i.e. instead of a focus of things as thing-in-themselves existing mind-independently out there, we should rather, focus on things are conditioned upon the human faculty of intuition [the human sensible faculty]. In this case, it would be possible to conceive the reality of things within the empirical world.
(this approach is vulnerable to the possible hallucinations and other weaknesses, but Kant eliminate those weaknesses philosophical critical thinking).

The point is the whole she-bang of serious philosophical problems arise from the philosophical realists ideological grasp of absolute mind-independent things, i.e. things-in-themselves exist regardless of whether there are humans or not.
As Kant alluded [B397], this is driven by some primal psychology where the ignorant humans will keep reifying and chasing the illusory things-in-themselves as absolutely real based on crude, raw under-developed Pure Reason, thus his Critique of Pure Reason.

Kant on the other hand suspend judgment on the above as absolutely mind-independent but rather posit mind-independence as relative only and contingent upon the human conditions [sensible faculty with the intellectual faculty].

Upon demonstrating things-in-themselves or the thing-in-itself as illusion[s], Kant nevertheless acknowledge that such illusions are useful for his moral theory.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes:
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes:
Iwannaplato
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 6:24 am Upon demonstrating things-in-themselves or the thing-in-itself as illusion[s], Kant nevertheless acknowledge that such illusions are useful for his moral theory.
It's stronger than that: without the existence (which we cannot confirm) of certain noumena there is no morality, period.

And let's be clear, this means that morality requires what Kant called rational faith. He also considered it necessary, in addition to rational faith in freedom, that we have rational faith in God and the immortality of the soul.
"But although freedom is not necessary in the theoretical employment of reason, it is the condition of the practical employment of reason, which rests upon moral laws, and we must therefore assume it if we are to think of a being as practically determined by such laws."
(Critique of Pure Reason, A801/B829)
"The moral law commands that we should make the highest possible good in a world the final object of all our conduct. But this is possible only on the presupposition of the immortality of the soul and the existence of God."
(Critique of Practical Reason, 5:132)
"This perfect accordance of the mind with the moral law is holiness, in which every rational being in the whole of its duration must be able to participate. However, since such a disposition of will cannot be attained in this life, it is only under the presupposition of an endless progress of such a disposition and of the existence of the same rational being continuing in this progress that it can be assumed to be attainable."
(Critique of Practical Reason, 5:122)
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 6:42 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 6:24 am Upon demonstrating things-in-themselves or the thing-in-itself as illusion[s], Kant nevertheless acknowledge that such illusions are useful for his moral theory.
It's stronger than that: without the existence (which we cannot confirm) of certain noumena there is no morality, period.

And let's be clear, this means that morality requires what Kant called rational faith. He also considered it necessary, in addition to rational faith in freedom, that we have rational faith in God and the immortality of the soul.
"But although freedom is not necessary in the theoretical employment of reason, it is the condition of the practical employment of reason, which rests upon moral laws, and we must therefore assume it if we are to think of a being as practically determined by such laws."
(Critique of Pure Reason, A801/B829)
"The moral law commands that we should make the highest possible good in a world the final object of all our conduct. But this is possible only on the presupposition of the immortality of the soul and the existence of God."
(Critique of Practical Reason, 5:132)
"This perfect accordance of the mind with the moral law is holiness, in which every rational being in the whole of its duration must be able to participate. However, since such a disposition of will cannot be attained in this life, it is only under the presupposition of an endless progress of such a disposition and of the existence of the same rational being continuing in this progress that it can be assumed to be attainable."
(Critique of Practical Reason, 5:122)
What is rational faith, other than it is basically "faith".
In another perspective, Kant claimed it is pseudo-rational not rationality-proper.

Philosophical realists claim whatever is real is absolutely mind-independent, i.e. it exists regardless of whether there are human or not. Kant rejected this with his Copernican Revolution.

Note this from above;
"But although freedom is not necessary in the theoretical employment of reason, it is the condition of the practical employment of reason, which rests upon moral laws,.."

Whatever exists, in this case, 'freedom' exists conditionally not absolutely as claimed by philosophical realists.
It is condition of the practical employment of reason, which rests upon moral laws, within the human conditions.

As such, the idea of freedom [illusory] is never absolute but relative and conditioned within the human conditions, i.e. the moral law within and within a human-based moral FSERC.

Philosophical realists insist if moral facts [laws, idea of freedom] then they must exists absolutely independent of the mind. Since moral elements are always subjective, there cannot be any mind-independent moral laws or facts nor absolute freedom. Therefore to philosophical realists [related to this case] there morality cannot be objective.

Again, you are not taking Kant's points in the full context of his whole philosophy.
Atla
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Atla »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 6:42 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 6:24 am Upon demonstrating things-in-themselves or the thing-in-itself as illusion[s], Kant nevertheless acknowledge that such illusions are useful for his moral theory.
It's stronger than that: without the existence (which we cannot confirm) of certain noumena there is no morality, period.

And let's be clear, this means that morality requires what Kant called rational faith. He also considered it necessary, in addition to rational faith in freedom, that we have rational faith in God and the immortality of the soul.
"But although freedom is not necessary in the theoretical employment of reason, it is the condition of the practical employment of reason, which rests upon moral laws, and we must therefore assume it if we are to think of a being as practically determined by such laws."
(Critique of Pure Reason, A801/B829)
"The moral law commands that we should make the highest possible good in a world the final object of all our conduct. But this is possible only on the presupposition of the immortality of the soul and the existence of God."
(Critique of Practical Reason, 5:132)
"This perfect accordance of the mind with the moral law is holiness, in which every rational being in the whole of its duration must be able to participate. However, since such a disposition of will cannot be attained in this life, it is only under the presupposition of an endless progress of such a disposition and of the existence of the same rational being continuing in this progress that it can be assumed to be attainable."
(Critique of Practical Reason, 5:122)
Kinda strange that VA is trying to use Kant's CPR to destroy God and religion, even though Kant wrote the CPR in order to save God and religion..
Iwannaplato
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 7:48 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 6:42 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 6:24 am Upon demonstrating things-in-themselves or the thing-in-itself as illusion[s], Kant nevertheless acknowledge that such illusions are useful for his moral theory.
It's stronger than that: without the existence (which we cannot confirm) of certain noumena there is no morality, period.

And let's be clear, this means that morality requires what Kant called rational faith. He also considered it necessary, in addition to rational faith in freedom, that we have rational faith in God and the immortality of the soul.
"But although freedom is not necessary in the theoretical employment of reason, it is the condition of the practical employment of reason, which rests upon moral laws, and we must therefore assume it if we are to think of a being as practically determined by such laws."
(Critique of Pure Reason, A801/B829)
"The moral law commands that we should make the highest possible good in a world the final object of all our conduct. But this is possible only on the presupposition of the immortality of the soul and the existence of God."
(Critique of Practical Reason, 5:132)
"This perfect accordance of the mind with the moral law is holiness, in which every rational being in the whole of its duration must be able to participate. However, since such a disposition of will cannot be attained in this life, it is only under the presupposition of an endless progress of such a disposition and of the existence of the same rational being continuing in this progress that it can be assumed to be attainable."
(Critique of Practical Reason, 5:122)
What is rational faith, other than it is basically "faith".
In another perspective, Kant claimed it is pseudo-rational not rationality-proper.
Regardless, those noumena he considered necessary for morality.
Philosophical realists claim whatever is real is absolutely mind-independent, i.e. it exists regardless of whether there are human or not. Kant rejected this with his Copernican Revolution.
Not relevant to my post.
Note this from above;
"But although freedom is not necessary in the theoretical employment of reason, it is the condition of the practical employment of reason, which rests upon moral laws,.."
Exactly it is not necessary for epistemology, but it is necessary for morality.
As such, the idea of freedom [illusory] is never absolute but relative and conditioned within the human conditions, i.e. the moral law within and within a human-based moral FSERC.
Obviously, he considered freedom noumenon. But he considered it absolutely necessary for us to be moral agents. I am nowhere arguing that anyone can demonstrate it exists, according to Kant. And he was NOT saying is existed conditioned on some FSK. He in fact was saying we must assume its existence to consider moral agency possible.
Philosophical realists insist if moral facts [laws, idea of freedom] then they must exists absolutely independent of the mind. Since moral elements are always subjective, there cannot be any mind-independent moral laws or facts nor absolute freedom. Therefore to philosophical realists [related to this case] there morality cannot be objective.
Irrelevant.
Again, you are not taking Kant's points in the full context of his whole philosophy.
And you are conflating all sorts of things above.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Iwannaplato »

Kant believes it is necessary to have faith that certain noumena exist.
VA says all noumena are illusions.
Kant believes that God is a noumenon, and believes that it is necessary to morality to have rational faith in God.
Kant believes that the immortal soul is noumenon, and believes that it is necessary for morality to have rational faith in the immortal soul.
Likewise with freedom.

VA and Kant differ on some core issues, including how we can and should think of noumena. Period.

Now, this of course does not mean that VA is wrong about his beliefs, other than some of his beliefs about what Kant is saying. But as long as he continues to use Kant in appeals to authority, there is a problem. To the extent that some of Kant inspires his arguments and justifications, there is no problem.

There's no FSERC thingie in Kant where he considers the existence of God or freedom or the immortality of souls as objective, but relatively conditioned on an FSERC. I do not mean that Kant doesn't use that language. I mean that that is not at all what he is saying in his language.

Kant does not say noumena do not exist. He does say we cannot know if they exist given they are not phenomena.
But he does consider the existence of 3 noumena necessary for us to be moral beings.
And he had rational faith in their existence.
This differs radically from VA's position.

Again, this does not mean VA is wrong in his position, but just that it is not at all like Kant's position on these issues. One can be right even when one disagrees with Kant.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 9:05 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 7:48 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 6:42 am
It's stronger than that: without the existence (which we cannot confirm) of certain noumena there is no morality, period.

And let's be clear, this means that morality requires what Kant called rational faith. He also considered it necessary, in addition to rational faith in freedom, that we have rational faith in God and the immortality of the soul.
What is rational faith, other than it is basically "faith".
In another perspective, Kant claimed it is pseudo-rational not rationality-proper.
Regardless, those noumena he considered necessary for morality.
Philosophical realists claim whatever is real is absolutely mind-independent, i.e. it exists regardless of whether there are human or not. Kant rejected this with his Copernican Revolution.
Not relevant to my post.
Note this from above;
"But although freedom is not necessary in the theoretical employment of reason, it is the condition of the practical employment of reason, which rests upon moral laws,.."
Exactly it is not necessary for epistemology, but it is necessary for morality.
As such, the idea of freedom [illusory] is never absolute but relative and conditioned within the human conditions, i.e. the moral law within and within a human-based moral FSERC.
Obviously, he considered freedom noumenon. But he considered it absolutely necessary for us to be moral agents. I am nowhere arguing that anyone can demonstrate it exists, according to Kant. And he was NOT saying is existed conditioned on some FSK. He in fact was saying we must assume its existence to consider moral agency possible.
When Kant discuss about morality it is implied that morality is conditioned upon a specific moral framework and system, i.e. the Kantian Moral Framework with its systems[FS], which ultimately is human based. How else?
The Kantian moral framework is specific to Kant and different from Hume's moral FS, and other moral FS.
It is only within the specific moral system that the assumption [of absolute freedom] is made, just like all assumptions are always conditioned upon its specific framework and system [ultimately has to be human based].
Philosophical realists insist if moral facts [laws, idea of freedom] then they must exists absolutely independent of the mind. Since moral elements are always subjective, there cannot be any mind-independent moral laws or facts nor absolute freedom. Therefore to philosophical realists [related to this case] there morality cannot be objective.
Irrelevant.
It is relevant.
Again, you are not taking Kant's points in the full context of his whole philosophy.
And you are conflating all sorts of things above.
Where?
It a fact you have not read and understood [not necessary agree with] Kant's CPR thoroughly and also Kant's works on Morality.
You have an inherent handicap when trying to critique my interpretations of Kant's CPR.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 11:53 am Kant believes it is necessary to have faith that certain noumena exist.
VA says all noumena are illusions.
Kant believes that God is a noumenon, and believes that it is necessary to morality to have rational faith in God.
Kant believes that the immortal soul is noumenon, and believes that it is necessary for morality to have rational faith in the immortal soul.
Likewise with freedom.
It a fact you have not read and understood [not necessary agree with] Kant's CPR thoroughly and also Kant's works on Morality.
You have an inherent handicap when trying to critique my interpretations of Kant's CPR.

Kant never asserted 'God is a noumenon'.
Kant demonstrated God is a thing-in-itself [inferred from noumenon] which is an illusion [when claimed as real] but albeit a useful illusion for his moral theory.
VA and Kant differ on some core issues, including how we can and should think of noumena. Period.

Now, this of course does not mean that VA is wrong about his beliefs, other than some of his beliefs about what Kant is saying. But as long as he continues to use Kant in appeals to authority, there is a problem. To the extent that some of Kant inspires his arguments and justifications, there is no problem.

There's no FSERC thingie in Kant where he considers the existence of God or freedom or the immortality of souls as objective, but relatively conditioned on an FSERC. I do not mean that Kant doesn't use that language. I mean that that is not at all what he is saying in his language.

Kant does not say noumena do not exist. He does say we cannot know if they exist given they are not phenomena.
But he does consider the existence of 3 noumena necessary for us to be moral beings.
And he had rational faith in their existence.
This differs radically from VA's position.

Again, this does not mean VA is wrong in his position, but just that it is not at all like Kant's position on these issues. One can be right even when one disagrees with Kant.
Kant did not use the term FSERC but it is implied in his CPR.
Pure Understanding distinguishes itself not merely from all that is Empirical but completely also from all Sensibility. B90
It [Pure Understanding] is a Unity Self-subsistent, Self-sufficient, and not to be increased by any additions from without.
The Sum of its Knowledge thus constitutes a System, comprehended and determined by One Idea.
The Completeness and Articulation of this System can at the same time yield a criterion of the correctness and genuineness of all its components.
B90
In the CPR [Smith], the term 'system' is repeated 437 times.

Note this from;
viewtopic.php?p=724062#p724062
AI wrote:The Context of Kant’s Remarks:
You rightly highlight that Kant’s statements about the noumenon evolve throughout his work, especially in the Critique of Pure Reason (CPR).
Early in the CPR, Kant emphasizes the limitations of our cognitive capacities. He acknowledges that we lack a peculiar intuition necessary to grasp the intelligible (noumenal) realm.
Later, he becomes more explicit about the elusive nature of noumena, cautioning against reifying them as objective entities.
this point by Kant
"...otherwise we should be landed in the absurd conclusion that there can be appearance without anything that appears..."
is only applicable to the context of the 1st main part of his CPR, i.e.
1. the AESTHETIC and the sensible world.
The other two main parts [stages/phases] are;
2. Transcendental Analytic - the human intellect
3. Transcendental DIALECTIC - Illusion from Pure Reason -useful for Kant's moral theory.

I do not agree with Kant totally especially his use of the term 'God' for his morality.
It was argued it is most likely Kant was a closet-atheist due to the dominant theistic authority during his time and the risk of his tenure [he was reprimanded by the King for his critique of Christianity and God].
Iwannaplato
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Re: Kant's Morality & his Copernican Revolution

Post by Iwannaplato »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 11:53 am Kant believes it is necessary to have faith that certain noumena exist.
VA says all noumena are illusions.
Kant believes that God is a noumenon, and believes that it is necessary to morality to have rational faith in God.
Kant believes that the immortal soul is noumenon, and believes that it is necessary for morality to have rational faith in the immortal soul.
Likewise with freedom.
It a fact you have not read and understood [not necessary agree with] Kant's CPR thoroughly and also Kant's works on Morality.
You have an inherent handicap when trying to critique my interpretations of Kant's CPR.[/quote]
Ad hom and contentless.
Kant never asserted 'God is a noumenon'.
Kant demonstrated God is a thing-in-itself [inferred from noumenon] which is an illusion [when claimed as real] but albeit a useful illusion for his moral theory.
That sentence is garbled. Further check your Kant again, he did not say God is an illusion. That's just BS. And he also said that a deity was necessary for practical reason (morality). He made it clear there was no way to test for or prove the existence of God, but that if there is no God, then humans cannot be moral agents.
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