Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

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Veritas Aequitas
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Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Those [moral-antirealists PH et. al] arguing against moral realism are mainly relying on the classic arguments, e.g. Hume's IS-OUGHT, Moore's Naturalistic Fallacies [non-moral facts cannot be moral facts], Open Question Argument, and others.
These moral antirealists are like primitive tribes using spears and arrows to fight against modern automatic guns and missiles.

Recently there has been a surge of new arguments to support moral realism and moral objectivity with the likes of the Cornell moral realists, Landau, Brink, McCord, Sturgeon, Railton, and from any other sources, e.g. science, neurosciences, psychology, evolution, biology, etc.

Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing its Force.
PH et. al. should not be so arrogant based on their ignorance of the newer arguments.

The problem with such arrogance is the promotion of moral relativism, moral subjectivism, moral skepticism, moral nihilism and the likes which are a hindrance and stalling to the moral progress of humanity.

Here are some clues from AI [wR] with a balanced view;
AI wrote: Moral Realism: There are objective moral truths independent of human opinion. (e.g., Torture is always wrong, regardless of culture or belief)
Moral Anti-Realism: Moral truths are subjective and depend on human beliefs or emotions. (e.g., Torture is wrong because most people find it repulsive)

The resurgence of moral realism has reignited the debate, and it's fair to ask if the classic arguments have lost their bite. Let's delve into each one:

Hume's Is-Ought Problem: This argument points out the gap between factual statements ("is") and moral statements ("ought"). Simply observing the world can't tell you what you morally should do. However, moral realists like David Brink argue that even though facts don't entail morals, they can still provide evidence for them. For example, facts about human well-being could support moral claims about actions that promote it.
The Cornell Realists might respond by arguing that moral facts supervene on natural facts, meaning they depend on them but aren't reducible to them.

Moore's Naturalistic Fallacy: This argument states you can't define "good" in terms of natural properties. Moore famously argued that saying pleasure is good is like saying yellow is good - you haven't really defined good, just added another property. Newer moral realists like Richard Boyd argue for a more nuanced view. They say properties like "pleasure-producing" can be evidence for something being good, even if they aren't identical.
The Cornell Realists might argue they aren't defining good, but rather uncovering its natural properties.

Open Question Argument: This argument highlights that even after learning all the facts, we can still ask "but is it morally right?" This seems to suggest morality isn't based on facts. However, realists like Peter Railton argue that this doesn't necessarily mean morals aren't objective. We might still be asking the question because we haven't considered all the relevant facts, or because we haven't fully grasped the moral principles at play.

Whether these classical arguments have lost their force depends on how convincing you find the realist responses.

The resurgence of moral realism presents a serious challenge to the classic arguments against it.

This is a complex topic, and there's no easy answer. But by understanding the arguments on both sides, you can form your own well-informed view.

Overall, the debate is lively. While classic arguments remain influential, the new wave of moral realism offers a fresh perspective on the relationship between facts and moral truths.
Note the above is not one presentation but a combination of various points from AI.

My point is,
PH et. al. merely kept digging in with their classical arguments against the newer resurgence of arguments for moral realism. This dogmatism based on ignorance is a hindrance to moral progress.
PH et. al. should be familiar with the newer arguments for moral realism and offer their counter against these new arguments.

Having researched into the newer arguments for realism I am confident of the existence of real objective moral facts [FSERC] taken as moral standards and that will facilitate moral progress within humanity.

Discuss??
Views??
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes:

Metaethics - Moral Naturalism 1
Moore's Arguments against Moral Realism has lost its bite
Kane B - a reputable YouTuber on Morality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw_a8NXZwMw
now Moores argument was highly influential for many decades and many took it to raise a serious challenge to Moral Naturalism
[25:44] these days it's not considered so powerful
there are a number of different ways of defusing Moores challenge
but I'll just note a couple of the more important responses
first of all one major objection to Moore's argument at least if it's presented as an argument against Moral Naturalism is that it confuses a question of semantics with a question of metaphysics
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes:

However, recent developments in the philosophy of language and metaphysics have raised concerns about Moore’s argument.
...
Once the Open Question is sidelined as being, at least, not decisive, room is left for thinking a correct account of the Moral facts might identify them as natural facts.
Just which facts those might be, and what arguments one might offer for one account rather than another, remains open, but the idea that we can know ahead of time that there are no good arguments for such an account is no longer widely accepted.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-realism/#2
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Thu Jul 18, 2024 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Iwannaplato »

The OP is a kind of ad hom argument.

What VA could do is actually try to understand the new realists's arguments himself so he can actually present them in his own words, integrate it with his position and see what happens.

The OP is like gossip with insults.
Atla
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:02 am
AI wrote: Whether these classical arguments have lost their force depends on how convincing you find the realist responses.
They are mere desperate attempts, have yet to see a convincing one. Although you tricked God into saying something incorrect, both the classical and the new realist arguments could be rubbish. Moral goodness could indeed be a natural property (no argument can prove a negative), and is -> ought could work on it, but no new realist argument has convincingly shown that we've found such a property.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Note:
I had stated AI had given a balanced view:
This is a complex topic, and there's no easy answer. But by understanding the arguments on both sides, you can form your own well-informed view.

Overall, the debate is lively. While classic arguments remain influential, the new wave of moral realism offers a fresh perspective on the relationship between facts and moral truths.
I added my personal view that there are objective moral facts as supported from a new surge of arguments for moral realism.
Moral realism is critically necessary for moral progress.

On the other hand, moral relativism, skepticism and nihilism are indirectly complicit to all the continuing evils that are happening in the world at present and in the future.
e.g.
Moral Relativists Condone Killing of Babies for Pleasure
viewtopic.php?t=42185
Atla
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:10 am Moral realism is critically necessary for moral progress.
You may think this maybe because you have a deficit in empathy, who knows. You can't simply say this as if it was unquestionably true. Moral realism is false, it's a lie, trying to base moral progress on a lie arguably won't work. Many people won't be able to get past the fact that they are supposed to build on a lie, some would see it as immoral even.

I argue that that's why the pseudo-objectivist (pseudo-realist) kind of subjective morality is the optimal for moral progress. Here, we know deep down that this kind of morality isn't truly objective, that it's actually humanly constructed, but we also agree to treat it as being as objective as possible and forget about its roots in the everyday life. Because imo this is the best we can do.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:36 pm Elsewhere, VA offers the following AI-generated bland mush about 'the resurgent moral realism'.
'Moral Realism: There are objective moral truths independent of human opinion. (e.g., Torture is always wrong, regardless of culture or belief)
Moral Anti-Realism: Moral truths are subjective and depend on human beliefs or emotions. (e.g., Torture is wrong because most people find it repulsive)

The resurgence of moral realism has reignited the debate, and it's fair to ask if the classic arguments have lost their bite. Let's delve into each one:

Hume's Is-Ought Problem: This argument points out the gap between factual statements ("is") and moral statements ("ought"). Simply observing the world can't tell you what you morally should do. However, moral realists like David Brink argue that even though facts don't entail morals, they can still provide evidence for them. For example, facts about human well-being could support moral claims about actions that promote it.
The Cornell Realists might respond by arguing that moral facts supervene on natural facts, meaning they depend on them but aren't reducible to them.

Moore's Naturalistic Fallacy: This argument states you can't define "good" in terms of natural properties. Moore famously argued that saying pleasure is good is like saying yellow is good - you haven't really defined good, just added another property. Newer moral realists like Richard Boyd argue for a more nuanced view. They say properties like "pleasure-producing" can be evidence for something being good, even if they aren't identical.
The Cornell Realists might argue they aren't defining good, but rather uncovering its natural properties.

Open Question Argument: This argument highlights that even after learning all the facts, we can still ask "but is it morally right?" This seems to suggest morality isn't based on facts. However, realists like Peter Railton argue that this doesn't necessarily mean morals aren't objective. We might still be asking the question because we haven't considered all the relevant facts, or because we haven't fully grasped the moral principles at play.

Whether these classical arguments have lost their force depends on how convincing you find the realist responses.

The resurgence of moral realism presents a serious challenge to the classic arguments against it.

This is a complex topic, and there's no easy answer. But by understanding the arguments on both sides, you can form your own well-informed view.

Overall, the debate is lively. While classic arguments remain influential, the new wave of moral realism offers a fresh perspective on the relationship between facts and moral truths.'
What strikes me is how the 'new moral realists' don't seem to grasp the unarguable refutation of realist arguments. For example, facts just can't be 'evidence' for moral opinions. So the claim 'facts about human well-being could support moral claims about actions that promote it' ignores the fundamental point that lack of entailment makes the connection completely subjective.
Strawman as usual.

Note: I have argued your basis of what is fact is grounded on an illusion, thus your argument is groundless.

The point here is, if a fact is non-moral fact [physical and events] then there is no direct entailment.
However there are loads of the thinking and actions of human beings e.g. related to empathy that can be transmuted into moral facts within a moral framework and system.

Analogy, there are loads of the thinking and actions of human beings e.g. related to sexual activities and thoughts that can be transmuted into sexual facts within a sexual framework and system.
E.g. the acts of copulations [and all 'sexual' activities] are transmuted as sexual facts within a sexual framework and system [as a subject, research, medical, legal, etc.], i.e. the sexual drive within the brains of all humans and they are supported by physical neurons in the brain and DNA.

This analogy is applicable to human activities that can be reduced to moral facts within a moral framework and system.

This is simply philosophical, and even logical, incompetence. How can '"pleasure-producing" can be evidence for something being good'? For one thing, pleasure-producing could also be evidence for something being bad. I wonder how this kind of nonsense passes muster in philosophical circles.
Strawman again, it did not specify it is absolute.
"Pleasure producing" can be for something good or bad.
However a person who is rational, think critically and has wisdom will milk whatever positive out of pleasure-good situation.
For example, a person would have felt pleasure and good in avoiding killing another human. The why of the pleasure-good thing can be traceable to moral facts.
This is not a complex topic. Moral rightness and wrongness are not and can never be matters of fact, independent from opinion. Whatever facts we deploy to try to justify a moral opinion, others can deploy the same facts differently, or different facts, to try to justify a different moral opinion.
Obvious the resultant opinions, beliefs and judgment of rightness and wrongness are not a matter of fact.
What is critical here are the underlying universal physical mechanisms that generate those supposedly moral opinions, beliefs and judgment. These physical elements are the moral facts contingent upon a moral framework and system.
That the majority judge that any killing of human is not permissible point to certain fundamental moral facts [grounded on a moral FS] within the human self.
That is our moral predicament. And the claim that, if this is true, we're condemned to deontological moral relativism, skepticism or nihilism is false. It's the other side of the counterfeit objectivist coin.
What predicament?
Moral relativists, skeptics and nihilists adopt these beliefs voluntary and their actions are manifested from these beliefs which are a hindrance to moral progress.

From a Moral Basis,
Moral relativists will tolerate the moral claims of the Oct-7 genocide because 'to each their own' i.e. different cultures has their own moral standards. So they will not strive for moral progress to prevent similar genocides in future on a moral basis.
Moral skeptics and nihilists will have no say in moral issues because whatever is moral is false or non-existent.

Moral relativists, skeptics and nihilists may turn to political and other means which are not efficient because they don't have a universal basis and standard to resolve the issues.
Note the majority of people from a political basis do not seriously condemn the Oct-7 genocide but rather focus on the collateral war death of the Israel-Hamas war.

A Moral Realist will condemn [in degrees of seriousness in relation to the context] all killings of humans regardless of whatever situations and who are the killers. As a universal standard, a moral realist will strive to prevent or eliminate any killing of humans.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

David Brink in his Moral Realism and the Foundation of Ethics wrote:
Although nonnaturalists were happy to concede [admit or agree to] the existence of an is/ought gap, nonnaturalism is no longer thought respectable; p143
The above even nonnaturalists agree to the is/ought gap, their argument based in it is no longer respectable.

As such those who reject moral realism should not simply throw in the is/ought gap and proclaim outright moral realism is impossible.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:10 am
On the other hand, moral relativism, skepticism and nihilism are indirectly complicit to all the continuing evils that are happening in the world at present and in the future.
In other words. Moral realists consider actions X, Y and Z to be moral. They justify their acts within moral realism. Then, after this, moral anti-realists refuse to say the moral realists are objectively evil...and in VAs eyes, this entails that the moral anti-realists are to blame for the evils.

Who are they complicit with? Moral realists. So, they don't do enough to stop the actions of moral realists.

But then something that has been addressed many times, moral antirealists are free, like anyone else, to try to make the world more as they wish it was. And this can and does entail that they struggle against behavior they dislike based on the same mirror neurons and human tendencies.

If our neuronal structures lead us towards moral behavior, as VA suggests, it will do this in them also.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

What is real is conditioned upon a human-based FS, of which the scientific FS is the most realistic; I argued the moral FS, thus moral empirical realism is just about on par.
Mirror neurons [as justified appropriately] are real and when correlated within the moral FS are related objective moral facts, thus moral realism or moral objectivity.

If a person recognizes the existence of real mirror neurons inherent and universal ALL humans in correlation with morality, then that has to be moral realism.
As such he is by definition a moral realist and moral objectivist.
The point here is the mirror neurons are inherent & universal and existing physically in ALL humans. That is the basis of moral realism.
The existing mirror neurons may be damaged, inactive or weak, that does not obviate their physical existence in correlation with morality, and moral realism.

On the other hand a moral relativist would only recognize mirror neurons exist in some people but not in all humans; or some may insist there is no such things as mirror neurons in correlation with morality.
This is why a moral relativist would insist each person has their own beliefs in morality.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jul 06, 2024 7:58 am What is real is conditioned upon a human-based FS, of which the scientific FS is the most realistic; I argued the moral FS, thus moral empirical realism is just about on par.
Mirror neurons [as justified appropriately] are real and when correlated within the moral FS are related objective moral facts, thus moral realism or moral objectivity.
No. Looking at that part of the brain could justify objective tendencies in human beings. Looking at the aggression complex could justify other objective tendencies. They show tendencies not any particular objective morality.
If a person recognizes the existence of real mirror neurons inherent and universal ALL humans in correlation with morality, then that has to be moral realism.
As such he is by definition a moral realist and moral objectivist.
Nope, all those indicate are tendencies that they can be influenced by. If someone says.

But my God this has all been pointed out time and again.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Humans are facts of reality - empirical realism [not philosophical realism].
Human nature is a fact of reality.
If human 'tendencies' are constant and universal that is a fact, i.e. a fact conditioned by the human-based human nature FSERC.
Such human tendencies which are constant and universal fact must be represented by some sort of neural algorithm in the brain, i.e. physical biological facts.

If the constant and universal human 'tendencies' [patterns of activities and behavior] are sexual in nature, then they are facts within the human-based sexuality-FSERC as verified and justified via the science-biology-neuroscience FSERC.

If the constant and universal human 'tendencies' [patterns of activities and behavior] are moral [as defined] in nature, then they are facts within the human-based moral-FSERC as verified and justified via the science-biology-neuroscience FSERC.

The mirror neurons are correlated with certain constant and universal human 'tendencies' [patterns of activities and behavior] regarded moral [as defined] in nature.
These mirror neurons and the moral related activities are moral facts within the human-based moral-FSERC as verified and justified via the science-biology-neuroscience FSERC.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

However, recent developments in the philosophy of language and metaphysics have raised concerns about Moore’s argument.
...
Once the Open Question is sidelined as being, at least, not decisive, room is left for thinking a correct account of the Moral facts might identify them as natural facts.
Just which facts those might be, and what arguments one might offer for one account rather than another, remains open, but the idea that we can know ahead of time that there are no good arguments for such an account is no longer widely accepted.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-realism/#2
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Classic Arguments Against Moral Realism is Losing Force

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Done with that supervenience fad and just moving straight onto naturalism now?
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