Education

[RWStanding]

Education
The United Nations provides a catalogue of Human Rights, including that of education for the child. Altruistically, that is quite right.
The United Nations does not specifically provide a list of Duties or Responsibilities. It may be said that the education as a right necessitates provision of schools. But a list of duties may extend beyond that and is worth creating.
The question arises, as to what a child in being educated does with that gift from society. He may either use it to further his own ambitions and monetary profits with no concern for its effects on society, or merely assuming it confers random benefit. But the altruistic use of education is for general benefit of the community and society, together with the natural environment, as a direct duty or resposnibility.
Which omits to mention the un-free society of authoritarianism and outright tyranny mayhap. This uses education to profit the hierachy of rule, with no concern for egalitarianism of any group but the serf.

[Impenitent]

education- train the "citizen" to obey

-Imp

[Peter Kropotkin]

education- train the "citizen" to obey

K: as this is just an opinion and not a fact, would you
like to provide us with some "facts" to back up your opinion?

and secondly, aren't you ''educated" in which case, aren't you trained
to obey?

Kropotkin

[Immanuel Can]

education- train the "citizen" to obey

-Imp

"Education," in the traditional mode, is merely "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic": literacy and basic mathematical competencies that allow students to become effective in their personal projects in the world. And if that's all the UN were asking for, I'd be entirely on their side. And maybe it is.

But maybe not. For today's left have not merely taken over the public schools to make them engines of Leftist propaganda and social engineering, but have cunningly realized that there's an argument that goes from "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic" to an open license to indoctrinate.

It goes this way. It starts with the claim, that all education is ideological anyway, so deliberate ideological indoctrination is better than the "accidental" indoctrination that goes along with conventional "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic" education.

Moreoever, this deliberate indoctrination can best be achieved by being presented as a form of "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic" education: we get them "readin'" ideologically-manipulative materials; we get them "writin'" arguments that take for granted ideologically-laden suppositions; we get them doing "'rithmetic" on ideologically-coded problems. In addition, we teach them "history" from ideological suppositional starting points; and we teach them things like sex-ed, so they take on our desired patterns of moral and sexual behaviour.

And then, whenever anybody objects to our indoctrination, we scream like pigs stuck under a gate: "You're against education!" And we damn them as retrograde, conservative, oppressive, slave-thinkers, and sexual prudes and control freaks. We make them out to be against even "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic."

[Impenitent]

first world thinking...

who cares if you can read when you can't gather food?

-Imp

[promethean75]

Only he whom by not knowing how to read was therefore not able to gather food?

[Iwannaplato]

K: as this is just an opinion and not a fact, would you
like to provide us with some "facts" to back up your opinion?

and secondly, aren't you ''educated" in which case, aren't you trained
to obey?

Kropotkin

I don't know schools are like today, but when I was a kid, they were definitely training us to obey. Sit in rows, do not move much, do not talk to your peers in class. Eyes forward, take notes, don't disagree (with rare exceptions) with the teachers. Move when the bell rings. Don't question conclusions in text books. Read what you are supposed to read on the topic, not other stuff (some exceptions here). In hallways, stay on the correct side. You will be talked to condescendingly, you will be given orders.

The structure of the learning was generally aimed at regurgitation of the thoughts you were given to have by the teachers.

There were some teachers who used bit of problem based learning. Some allowed some criticism. Some allowed a bit more questioning. Some were nice.

But the overall structure was not one that creates active, creative, critical thinkers and doers who know how to collaborate with their peers. It was generally autocratic and control oriented.

Terrible training for being a citizen in a democracy who has self-respect and the tools for questioning experts and authorities.

[Immanuel Can]

K: as this is just an opinion and not a fact, would you
like to provide us with some "facts" to back up your opinion?

and secondly, aren't you ''educated" in which case, aren't you trained
to obey?

Kropotkin

I don't know schools are like today, but when I was a kid, they were definitely training us to obey. Sit in rows, do not move much, do not talk to your peers in class. Eyes forward, take notes, don't disagree (with rare exceptions) with the teachers. Move when the bell rings. Don't question conclusions in text books. Read what you are supposed to read on the topic, not other stuff (some exceptions here). In hallways, stay on the correct side. You will be talked to condescendingly, you will be given orders.

The structure of the learning was generally aimed at regurgitation of the thoughts you were given to have by the teachers.

There were some teachers who used bit of problem based learning. Some allowed some criticism. Some allowed a bit more questioning. Some were nice.

But the overall structure was not one that creates active, creative, critical thinkers and doers who know how to collaborate with their peers. It was generally autocratic and control oriented.

Terrible training for being a citizen in a democracy who has self-respect and the tools for questioning experts and authorities.

Things are somewhat different today...but not more humane. What remains are the authoritarian aspects, but superficially, an astonishing slackness of actual education has taken hold, as well. Today's public schools are primarily institutions of childhood induction into Socialist thinking, including the disorienting and disabling of the normal personality, in the name of "social good" or "progress" or "inclusion" or even things like "sustainability."

They began as "factories of learning." Now, they are far more like "factories of indoctrination," in which learning the basic skills of life, such as reading, writing, calculating, actual critical thinking (not the same as "Critical Theory," which means Wokism), finance, science, knowledge, self-application, civic and historical knowledge, independence, and so on are not merely backgrounded by actually discouraged through disorienting practices of various kinds to make the children much more pliable to Leftist dogmatism.

[Age]

Education
The United Nations provides a catalogue of Human Rights, including that of education for the child. Altruistically, that is quite right.
The United Nations does not specifically provide a list of Duties or Responsibilities. It may be said that the education as a right necessitates provision of schools. But a list of duties may extend beyond that and is worth creating.
The question arises, as to what a child in being educated does with that gift from society.

Depending on if one has been taught to question and challenge the ideas or views of "others" or if one has been taught to just believe and accept the ideas or views of some only will decide if has been given 'a gift' from society or not.

See, being taught to "pick a side" and 'debate' is probably one of the worst things any society could teach its children and citizens. Teaching or 'educating' children that "one side" of 'things' is right while the "other side" is wrong and to 'try to' ridicule, humiliate, or just downplay "the other" is NOT what the word 'educate' once meant.

'To educate' once meant to draw out, as in 'to draw out' the potential from within.

But this way of teaching and 'growing' had changed to, in the days when this is being written, 'you either 'see' 'things' from 'my perspective' or "my side of things", agree with me, and thus provide THE answers that I expect and want to see, or you will get a 'fail mark', be a 'failure' (from my perspective), and/or be ridiculed as well.

Teaching the latter here is NOT 'a gift' from society AT ALL. This kind of 'teaching', or the misnomer 'education', is just RE-REPEATING the VERY Wrong 'teaching' one HAD TO ENDURE "themself" as a child. This kind of 'education' could also be known as 'train the citizen TO OBEY', as some one "else" might say and call 'it'

He may either use it to further his own ambitions and monetary profits with no concern for its effects on society, or merely assuming it confers random benefit.

If absolutely ANY human being so-calls 'grows up' thinking or believing that money is some sort of essential component of life or living, and is motivated by money or the desire of obtaining more money, then 'that one' is ABSOLUTE PROOF OF A FAILED SOCIETY and A FAILED so-called 'educational system'.

But the altruistic use of education is for general benefit of the community and society, together with the natural environment, as a direct duty or resposnibility.

WHEN 'education' is USED and DONE properly, then, as you say and point out here, the WHOLE community/society AND the WHOLE environment BENEFITS.

The 'schooling', in the days when this is being written, however, ACCOMPLISHES and ACHIEVES the EXACT OPPOSITE.

Which omits to mention the un-free society of authoritarianism and outright tyranny mayhap. This uses education to profit the hierachy of rule, with no concern for egalitarianism of any group but the serf.

[Iwannaplato]

Things are somewhat different today...but not more humane. What remains are the authoritarian aspects, but superficially, an astonishing slackness of actual education has taken hold, as well. Today's public schools are primarily institutions of childhood induction into Socialist thinking,

I'm skeptical that they get into socialism much. And frankly I don't want teachers telling children to be believers in any particular economic system.

including the disorienting and disabling of the normal personality,

Well, I've been through a school system that cookie cut us towards normal as they conceived it.

in the name of "social good" or "progress" or "inclusion" or even things like "sustainability."

Ah, well moralizing teachers and norms were always present.

They began as "factories of learning." Now, they are far more like "factories of indoctrination,"

Oh, they were like that when I was there.

in which learning the basic skills of life, such as reading, writing, calculating, actual critical thinking (not the same as "Critical Theory," which means Wokism), finance, science, knowledge, self-application, civic and historical knowledge, independence, and so on are not merely backgrounded by actually discouraged through disorienting practices of various kinds to make the children much more pliable to Leftist dogmatism.

conservative indoctrination with all its focus on shame and their norms or liberal/leftist indoctrinationw with its focus on guilt and its norms, I loathe them both. I don't think conservatives cared much about indoctrination of children until they lost control of the indoctrination.

[Age]

education- train the "citizen" to obey

-Imp

"Education," in the traditional mode, is merely "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic": literacy and basic mathematical competencies that allow students to become effective in their personal projects in the world.

LOL
LOL
LOL

This here is a PRIME example of just how NARROWED and SMALL A FIELD the 'perspective', 'viewing', and 'seeing' WAS, in 'these people', BACK THEN, in those 'OLDEN DAYS'. This one ACTUALLY BELIEVES that the 'traditional mode' of 'education' goes "ALL THE WAY BACK" to when 'it', LAUGHABLY, was 'a child'.

These people REALLY thought and/or BELIEVED that 'the traditional', or 'the tradition of things', BEGAN when 'they' were 'child'.

There is absolutely NOTHING Wrong with teaching those three things, in fact with those first two things one then can then LEARN, and TEACH, just about EVERY thing on their OWN. BUT, those three 'things' are NOT 'education' in 'the traditional mode' AT ALL.

'Education' once meant, 'to draw out', whereas this has completely been reversed to, 'to put in'.

And if that's all the UN were asking for, I'd be entirely on their side. And maybe it is.

But maybe not. For today's left have not merely taken over the public schools to make them engines of Leftist propaganda and social engineering, but have cunningly realized that there's an argument that goes from "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic" to an open license to indoctrinate.

This here is another PRIME example of a COMPLETELY FAILED 'schooling' or 'educational' 'system'. As can be CLEARLY SEEN here 'this one' HAS ALREADY picked A "side" and as can ALSO BE CLEARLY SEEN is FIGHTING 'till the death', FOR "that side".

It goes this way. It starts with the claim, that all education is ideological anyway, so deliberate ideological indoctrination is better than the "accidental" indoctrination that goes along with conventional "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic" education.

Moreoever, this deliberate indoctrination can best be achieved by being presented as a form of "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic" education: we get them "readin'" ideologically-manipulative materials; we get them "writin'" arguments that take for granted ideologically-laden suppositions; we get them doing "'rithmetic" on ideologically-coded problems. In addition, we teach them "history" from ideological suppositional starting points; and we teach them things like sex-ed, so they take on our desired patterns of moral and sexual behaviour.

And 'these words' COMING FROM one who HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY and OBVIOUSLY INDOCTRINATED INTO the 'one system' of ONE "christian religion". Although it seem IMPOSSIBLE to believe but 'this one' REALLY could NOT SEE that what 'it' is EXPLAINING here EXPLAINS 'its' OWN INDOCTRINATION EXACTLY, and PERFECTLY.

The ABSOLUTE CONTRADICTION, and HYPOCRISY, in SAYING and STATING that 'it IS the "other side" who ARE ARE INDOCTRINATING' was extremely FARCICAL and FUNNY to OBSERVE and WATCH 'play out' here.

ALTHOUGH the ACTUAL HARM and DAMAGE that WAS BEING CAUSED TO children was VERY DISHEARTENING to WITNESS.

And then, whenever anybody objects to our indoctrination, we scream like pigs stuck under a gate: "You're against education!"

LOL which is EXTREMELY HOW "immanuel can" 'SCREAMS' when ANY one objects to THE 'INDOCTRINATION' that IS being done and WAS done by so-called "christian" religions.

And we damn them as retrograde, conservative, oppressive, slave-thinkers, and sexual prudes and control freaks. We make them out to be against even "readin', writin' and 'rithmetic."

And the LIES and Falsehoods CONTINUE, in order to 'try to' PRESERVE "one's OWN side" of 'things'.

[Age]

first world thinking...

who cares if you can read when you can't gather food?

-Imp

It is NOT that 'you can not gather food'. It is 'the food' an 'resources' ARE being STOLEN FROM 'you', by those WITH money, and with GREED.

[Age]

K: as this is just an opinion and not a fact, would you
like to provide us with some "facts" to back up your opinion?

and secondly, aren't you ''educated" in which case, aren't you trained
to obey?

Kropotkin

I don't know schools are like today, but when I was a kid, they were definitely training us to obey. Sit in rows, do not move much, do not talk to your peers in class. Eyes forward, take notes, don't disagree (with rare exceptions) with the teachers. Move when the bell rings. Don't question conclusions in text books. Read what you are supposed to read on the topic, not other stuff (some exceptions here). In hallways, stay on the correct side. You will be talked to condescendingly, you will be given orders.

The structure of the learning was generally aimed at regurgitation of the thoughts you were given to have by the teachers.

There were some teachers who used bit of problem based learning. Some allowed some criticism. Some allowed a bit more questioning. Some were nice.

But the overall structure was not one that creates active, creative, critical thinkers and doers who know how to collaborate with their peers. It was generally autocratic and control oriented.

Terrible training for being a citizen in a democracy who has self-respect and the tools for questioning experts and authorities.

'This' and the VERY Fact that children STILL, in the VERY days when this is being written are 'TRAINED' to think and BELIEVE that one MUST GO TO 'school' for a huge majority of children, and then MUST GO TO 'work' for a major part of adulthood, FOR 'money' is sure ENOUGH 'evidence' AND 'proof' that there exists so-called 'educational systems' TRAINING the 'citizens' of countries to FOLLOW and OBEY then necessary means of GREED and SELFISHNESS.

As "iwwanoplato" so well explained how in 'its day' the OBSERVANCE and OBEDIENCE of 'its' "schooling's rules and teachers" might have been MORE STRICT than it is compared to the actual days when this is being written, the fact that children are TAUGHT to do and achieve just about everything individual on 'their own' indoctrinates or teaches a sense of individuality, selfish, and thus greed also. Which is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD considering the fact that in 'working life' people MUST COME TOGETHER to ACHIEVE and REACH outcomes, or 'goals'.

[Age]

K: as this is just an opinion and not a fact, would you
like to provide us with some "facts" to back up your opinion?

and secondly, aren't you ''educated" in which case, aren't you trained
to obey?

Kropotkin

I don't know schools are like today, but when I was a kid, they were definitely training us to obey. Sit in rows, do not move much, do not talk to your peers in class. Eyes forward, take notes, don't disagree (with rare exceptions) with the teachers. Move when the bell rings. Don't question conclusions in text books. Read what you are supposed to read on the topic, not other stuff (some exceptions here). In hallways, stay on the correct side. You will be talked to condescendingly, you will be given orders.

The structure of the learning was generally aimed at regurgitation of the thoughts you were given to have by the teachers.

There were some teachers who used bit of problem based learning. Some allowed some criticism. Some allowed a bit more questioning. Some were nice.

But the overall structure was not one that creates active, creative, critical thinkers and doers who know how to collaborate with their peers. It was generally autocratic and control oriented.

Terrible training for being a citizen in a democracy who has self-respect and the tools for questioning experts and authorities.

Things are somewhat different today...but not more humane.

OF COURSE EVERY 'thing' is 'somewhat different' 'today', from 'previously', but HOW, in the wrongly named 'educational system' do 'you' KNOW FOR SURE?

Are you INVOLVED in 'it', or visit 'there', MUCH?

What remains are the authoritarian aspects, but superficially, an astonishing slackness of actual education has taken hold, as well.

YES, VERY True. Just LOOK AT "christianity" for example. The 'teachings' of "chrisitianity" is GREAT PRIME example of 'AUTHORITARIANISM', with NO ACTUAL 'education' AT ALL.

Today's public schools are primarily institutions of childhood induction into Socialist thinking, including the disorienting and disabling of the normal personality, in the name of "social good" or "progress" or "inclusion" or even things like "sustainability."

Here we have ANOTHER PRIME example of "the OTHER side" is doing EVERY 'bad', whereas "my side" is SO GOOD and RIGHT.

They began as "factories of learning." Now, they are far more like "factories of indoctrination," in which learning the basic skills of life, such as reading, writing, calculating, actual critical thinking (not the same as "Critical Theory," which means Wokism), finance, science, knowledge, self-application, civic and historical knowledge, independence, and so on are not merely backgrounded by actually discouraged through disorienting practices of various kinds to make the children much more pliable to Leftist dogmatism.

Therefore, EVERY one SHOULD REJECT 'public schools' and ALL sign up to "christian schools" and "christian teachings", also do NOT forget that you HAVE TO PAY the EXORBITANT FEES for such a PRIVATE "educational system".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcr8dm9Prkk

[Immanuel Can]

Things are somewhat different today...but not more humane. What remains are the authoritarian aspects, but superficially, an astonishing slackness of actual education has taken hold, as well. Today's public schools are primarily institutions of childhood induction into Socialist thinking,

I'm skeptical that they get into socialism much.

In most classes, they never mention Socialism at all. What they do is practice Socialism on the kids. They're not gracious enough to tell anybody what they're doing...especially not the kids to whom they're doing it. It's like when the Left was protesting, "We don't teach CRT, because it's a legal theory, and far too academic for little kids to know anything about." And all the while, they were doing CRT to them, but never announcing that's what they were doing. But doing it, they most certainly were. That's public schools.

Universites are far more overt. The majority of university professors self-identify as either "centrist" or on the Left, the numbers being split. Less than 10% identify as political conservatives. In things like Women's Studies, Postcolonial Studies, etc., all the non-disciplined grievance fields, in other words, and the Faculties of Education, the numbers are higher...as close to 100% as you can get. And so it's no surprise that teachers are disproportionately drilled in Leftist theory as well. There's nobody there to speak on any other side.