This is an interesting topic and the point is those who have had experienced some sort of Altered States of Consciousness [ASC] believe they have experience what is really-real-reality that others are ignorant of, some even believe they have experienced God or are chosen agents of God.
Note the following as a 'starter' to the topic;
An altered state of consciousness (ASC),[1] also called altered state of mind or mind alteration, is any condition which is significantly different from a normal waking state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_s ... on_methods
1 Definitions
2 History
2.1 History of utilization of ASCs
2.2 History of the science and theoretical-modelling
3 Classification
4 Induction methods
4.1 Pharmacological
4.2 Non-pharmacological
4.3 Pathologies/other
4.3.1 Traumatic experience
4.3.2 Epilepsy
4.3.3 Oxygen deficiency
4.3.4 Infections
4.3.5 Sleep deprivation
4.3.6 Fasting
4.3.7 Psychosis
5 Neurobiological models of altered state experiences
5.1 Entropic brain hypothesis
5.2 CSTC-loop
6 See also
7 Notes
8 References
9 Sources
10 Further reading
Altered States of Consciousness
Experiences Out of Time and Self
Marc Wittmann
CONTENT:
1 On Time Consciousness 1
Time Expansion and Moments of Terror 1
Time and Space: The Intoxication of Drugs 11
At One with the World 23
Timeless in Near-Death 30
2 The Moment 41
Absolutely in the Moment 41
The Duration of a Moment 44
Mindfulness and Time 54
Beyond the Moment to Timelessness 63
Daydreams and Mind Wandering 74
3 Loss of Time and Self 77
A Puzzling Patient 77
Body, Emotions, Time 81
Me, Myself, and I: Boredom, Depression, Meditation 85
Epilepsy and Timelessness 91
Schizophrenia, or When Time Stands Still 95
Timeless through the Doors of Perception 104
Epilogue: On Scientific Awakening 115
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:01 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_s ... on_methods
1 Definitions
2 History
2.1 History of utilization of ASCs
2.2 History of the science and theoretical-modelling
3 Classification
4 Induction methods
4.1 Pharmacological
4.2 Non-pharmacological
4.3 Pathologies/other
4.3.1 Traumatic experience
4.3.2 Epilepsy
4.3.3 Oxygen deficiency
4.3.4 Infections
4.3.5 Sleep deprivation
4.3.6 Fasting
4.3.7 Psychosis
5 Neurobiological models of altered state experiences
5.1 Entropic brain hypothesis
5.2 CSTC-loop
6 See also
7 Notes
8 References
9 Sources
10 Further reading
Views if any?
It's sad/funny that some of the most important are under the heading non-pharmacological. IOW meditation, for example, is categorized in the negative. So, the states that have come via non-pejorative labelling are hard to even see.
I notice that under non-pharmacological, they leave out hypnopompic and hypnogicial, lucid dream (and actually dreaming itself, which while not rare, but rather common is not at all like waking consciousness), shamanic experiences, chanting... and more. Now someone might argue that these are under spiritual experiences, but since the word 'spiritual' includes a duality not held by many shamans, for example, it's misleading. Hypnosis and other forms of trances states (like those coming via dance, say) don't seem to be mentioned.
Also one gets the impression that we have a normal waking state and then alternatives, when in fact there is nothing so binary and if one were to experience other minds when they are shopping, making love (oh, that should be on the non-pharmacological list also), gambling, complaining, in school, on a train commuting, we find a range of states of consciousness.
And also nothing negative is aimed at business friendly states of altered consciousness....
using a cellphone (obsessively, which is normal)
looking for sale items
watching television
listening to propaganda/advertizing
and so on.
IOW this list has a political nature. Those things that challenge the status quo tend to be pathologized. Those things, however deleterious, that support capitalism (or extreme socialism elsewhere) are not problematic. If it serves power it's not alternate, if it doesn't or might not, then it's pathological.
How much have you learnt about it by your own experience?
I started when 8 with a simple question. Can dreams be used to practice the modification of human behavior while dreaming because they often do not have time for it when awake. Yes, that was my approach at 8 years old. Back in the 50's I never even was aware that what I was doing had anything written about it. It was not intimated to me to even read the Bible, because until it was suggested to me, I considered it trash, as I never read it until asked to try, and I was in my mid 30's by them. I am not religious, never have been and never will be, of what people traditionally call religion. I worship no god as men only put a subjectively defined anthropomorphic pooka to claim that is what the word means, I only aim at the biological and provable job of a mind as a life support system.
Where does my approach, and my early life in examining it fit your books?
And what the hell does religion, as hearsay, have to do with religion which originated in original text, when you can actually study the Bible, which does not teach religion at all but demands that you do your own work as a biological fact? Judgment?
And it comments on the distinction between dreams and visions by telling the reader it is their responsibility to test what they believe of it by using provable fact?
So, do you believe you learn by books, and rumor? or experience and examination? That is the only questions about anything. Or do you believe that belief is what you can imagine?
And why do you use the ridiculous phrase altered state of consciousness, when factually a mind has the exact same job to do no matter where information comes from?
Ever ask yourself, since we are the product of one brain, how do we process information using one concept, and have the responsibility to use it to write as the behavior of one body? I.e. Why do you, and almost every one you read, turn a noun into a verb?
Ever ask yourself how can you be true, when you insist on remaining ignorant of how you can actually use names to do the biologically defined job of a mind? That is the actual message of the Bible, Plato, Confucius, and which, you actually believe is opinion. Ever study metaphor by these masters? What it is, how and why used? What effect it has on increasing intelligence which is its only viable product? etc?
So, is rational behavior the product of an epileptic fit which some actually claim? LMAO. Well, I will just continue to snort my chocolate milk.
Have you ever noticed, that people do not center themselves on what they provably are, but on something that they are provably not?
Start with that quest:> Know thyself, for if you cannot know just that one thing, why in the hell would you believe you could know anything unless you are delusional.
We are potentially the most powerful life support system possible. That is the point of the Bible, Confucius, Plato, and anybody with half a brain. Therefore we have a well-defined biologically determined job to perform and well-defined physically determined means of doing that job.
And, do you imagine, that if you assume to know how to read metaphor, by assuming you can process words correctly, you are wasting your life, and the lives of everyone you want paying attention to you.
My answer has been the same, during my discourses with an intelligence which was not my own. My biggest failure with it was my desire to find a commensurate mate produced bad judgment, consistently over my life. I find the whole idea of a woman amazing. A help meet for the business of life. When looking for a wife, I just cannot seem to say No, as I have to actually know a person and see if their words will match their actions. Never found one. Simple as that. And I have actually had a child die because of it.
You do not seem to comprehend it. The source of information can not possibly change the biological function, the job of a mind.
That is why you have what appear to be two stories of creation. One that looks very good, and one that looks very bad. What is the common message in both of them disregarding the actors and the circumstances? One story about the relationship between mind and body, head and hand, that looks very good, and another, which looks very bad? You think that the actually content of each is different because you cannot respond to words in accordance with meaning?
That is the message. Or, Judge not by appearance, but by righteous judgment. In another words, you alone, regardless of the situation, are responsible for your behavior, those where my lessons when I was learning, and looky here, that is exactly what is in the Book. I verified my experiences constantly, and part of that is not giving up learning until you can prove you got it. When studying Plato, I not only read and re-read it, but several complete translations of it also. I also reformatted all of it for a machine reader I designed and use, because I wanted to be absolutely sure of what he was saying, and can distinguish, those dialogs which are not about dialectic at all and I would not attribute to Plato.
Plato was a master, the source of the Bible was/is even more difficult.
But all of it resolves to the factual job of a mind, no matter what stress it is placed under. In true Lucid Dreaming, if one progress far enough, you are deliberately placed in terror in order to master it. When you master it, the lesson is over. The foundation of your behavior is either factual and provable or you are by definition schizophrenic, divorced from reality. My first epiphany, as two is all I have had I think, was when I was in diapers, and could not even speak English, I thought, with great admiration, that there is a right way to do anything and I have only spent a life time in that belief. Do you remember a time you could think in English, but could not yet use it to actually speak? I do because I can never forget that epiphany.
Now here is a question. When I pointed to my work, If you had even bothered to examine, would you not have said, how would it would even be possible for a mind to be defective, and yet do so much work, where everything is proven by trusted math programs? And all of it original work, in a long standing field, that no one else was able to do? How can a mind, with defects, produce it? You do not have to learn to concentrate on a topic for a few minutes, nor a few days, but months at a time. I usually burn out, at about 4 months.
But ask yourself, what is the average age that people believe that they know, and simply stop learning and start parroting? What age do people stop learning, and start spending a great deal of time defending their ignorance by gibberish?
Every thing I have said, is aimed at the biologically defined job of a mind, how I came to learn it, and how it is very provable and the massive work I have done actually proving it, yet what has been the response to objective facts? Generally bull shit and nonsense.
I am, and always have been committed to a single cause, the job of that life support system called mind, from diapers to the grave. One job. That is objectively our given job, not chosen by opinion.
Now if you want to give it a name, call it a work ethic, or as Plato did, doing one's own work, or as the Bible put it, that you would think about judgment all the days of your life, all the time in your life. See if you can possibly call a functional mind, a mental defect, a delusion, or strange, odd or anti social. So, why bother with opinion's when there are teachers whose sole point is your own work, and they attempt to prove it to you, whose fault is it that a person cannot learn? The teacher or the student?
Whose fault is it what someone claims to be a teacher, and a child, by fact, who cannot judge is given the job to learn from that teacher, the teacher, and those who invest that person as a teacher, or the victim, the student?
What standard can you possibly use than objective, provable, biological fact, and why is it not even recognized today, when it has been presented over and over again throughout a long history? Can you give a monkey a typewriter and, as imagined, think it will someday write something, or will it just go into a simple pattern of behavior going nowhere?
Is right and wrong a biological derivative or just bull shit people can pull out of their own ass? Not an interesting topic? What can be more interesting than the job we are biologically designed to do?
By the way, you want to know what the cause of both of my epiphanies were? The first was, I did not understand why, when faced with a simple problem, my older brother and sister responded as if they were stupid.
The second, was why was I acting stupid? Why was I going along with my best friend who decided it would be fun to shoot frogs with a bee-bee gun, and not stopping myself from joining in, I suddenly realized how horribly I acted. Both times, I was very, very young.
The only time I entered a Lucid Dream-state, was when I wanted answers to questions about its usefulness, And the only Visions I have ever had, was because I was doing something which would end up with a fatality.
Show me any drug, that is judged, based on, predictive behavior, or any delusion capable of producing it. That is the factual purpose of a mind. If it does not match its purpose, you are dysfunctional and the claims those drugs help a patent lie.
That should not even be a debate as it is an obvious fact. Yet you study mountains of gibberish by people who never mentions a standard, the factual, job of a mind, and you flatter yourself into believing that you are learning something.
Which people, in history, based their teachings on the provable job of the mind, you will not even find it in psychology today.
The greatest pandemic, in all of history has been an STD called Socially Transmitted Stupidity. Now, I have been inoculated by the best, do you really think I will catch it here, on this forum? Do you believe anyone here will convince me that the truth of our own job, is not the "real" world?
I have happened to experience altered states of consciousness.
In which reality is even more real than normal life.
It is like witnessing a sudden widening of awareness.
Some of these episodes happened after a period of great emotional stress.
While it once happened when I was under anesthesia for surgery. During which, I later learned, I almost died.
I found myself being my father, in a moment of daily life when he was holding his son in his arms.
That son was me!
And it was real life.
When I realized that I was both the father and the son, all my certainty about who I am and where I am dissolved by magic.
I was faced with infinite possibilities of life, and one of them would have touched me.
But it could hardly have been a continuation of this one.
However, I finally returned, but the world and myself have never been the same again.
bobmax wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:05 pm
I have happened to experience altered states of consciousness.
In which reality is even more real than normal life.
It is like witInessing a sudden widening of awareness.
Some of these episodes happened after a period of great emotional stress.
While it once happened when I was under anesthesia for surgery. During which, I later learned, I almost died.
I found myself being my father, in a moment of daily life when he was holding his son in his arms.
That son was me!
And it was real life.
When I realized that I was both the father and the son, all my certainty about who I am and where I am dissolved by magic.
I was faced with infinite possibilities of life, and one of them would have touched me.
But it could hardly have been a continuation of this one.
However, I finally returned, but the world and myself have never been the same again.
Interesting.
I've experienced a variety of altered states. I learned to lucid dream and it still happens now and then. I've had many odd experiences out in nature, especially when I've been far from humans. Meditation, hypnosis, trance.
Sometimes like you in times of extreme emotion.
Once I shared an altered state with a friend. I actually don't want to go into too much detail, but we were watching a movie that took place in a country I have never been to. I kept feeling like I had been there, until the feeling becamse so strong that I left the room where people were watching the film on video. My friend stayed in the room. After a while I calmed down and just played some pool while waiting for him to come out. When he did he walked within 5 feet of me, looked me in the eyes, looked at others in the room, finally asked if anyone had seen me. I said, I am right here and he screamed. He said I did not look like me at all. He saw someone who had the characteristics - hair, skin, eye color - that fit the place in the film, without knowing anyhtnig about my experience. It was unsettling, but also lovely and interesting.
I should say also that my feelings about being in that country were not good. IOW it felt like I had bad experiences there. The mood hung over me for several days.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:46 pm
I've experienced a variety of altered states. I learned to lucid dream and it still happens now and then. I've had many odd experiences out in nature, especially when I've been far from humans. Meditation, hypnosis, trance.
Sometimes like you in times of extreme emotion.
Once I shared an altered state with a friend. I actually don't want to go into too much detail, but we were watching a movie that took place in a country I have never been to. I kept feeling like I had been there, until the feeling becamse so strong that I left the room where people were watching the film on video. My friend stayed in the room. After a while I calmed down and just played some pool while waiting for him to come out. When he did he walked within 5 feet of me, looked me in the eyes, looked at others in the room, finally asked if anyone had seen me. I said, I am right here and he screamed. He said I did not look like me at all. He saw someone who had the characteristics - hair, skin, eye color - that fit the place in the film, without knowing anyhtnig about my experience. It was unsettling, but also lovely and interesting.
I should say also that my feelings about being in that country were not good. IOW it felt like I had bad experiences there. The mood hung over me for several days.
I don't think these experiences can increase our knowledge.
Because they are difficult to repeat, they are like sudden flashes, which let you glimpse something, but never anything definitive.
They raise a problem rather than solve it.
But they act on us, they arouse curiosity.
They are an invitation to reflect.
But whether it is really an invitation is up to us to decide.
bobmax wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:05 pm
I don't think these experiences can increase our knowledge.
Because they are difficult to repeat, they are like sudden flashes, which let you glimpse something, but never anything definitive.
They raise a problem rather than solve it.
But they act on us, they arouse curiosity.
They are an invitation to reflect.
But whether it is really an invitation is up to us to decide.
The point that you have had such an experience is already an added knowledge that is different from the norms of the experiences of the majority. The difference is the nature, type, degrees and intensity of the experience.
I believe it is a good idea that every human experience ASC of the depersonalization type with a detachment of the ego where one feel the oneness with the universe.
For many who have had ASC, most of the time they never expect it but rather it is out of the blue due to various psychosis, brain damage, tumors, stress, drugs. etc.
For those who are regular meditators or take hallucinogens they can expect to experience some sort and ASC of various degrees.
The problem with hallucinogens is they do not ensure every trip is a good experience as at times one can experience a VERY bad, horrific and terrible trip that one would hesitate to try it again.
So I do hope every human in the future would be able to experience ASC on a voluntarily basis with assurance of "good" experiences of "oneness with the universe", i.e. the detachment of the ego.
This will be one way of contributing to the average moral competence of humanity.
bobmax wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:05 pm
I don't think these experiences can increase our knowledge.
I get what you mean, but I think they can, and did. If they are strong enough they open one to new experiences, challenge assumptions and help you notice things that you've unconsciously or barely consciously dismissed before. In my case they led to explorations, so that they could be repeated.
Because they are difficult to repeat, they are like sudden flashes, which let you glimpse something, but never anything definitive.
They raise a problem rather than solve it.
But they act on us, they arouse curiosity.
They are an invitation to reflect.
But whether it is really an invitation is up to us to decide.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:10 am
The point that you have had such an experience is already an added knowledge that is different from the norms of the experiences of the majority. The difference is the nature, type, degrees and intensity of the experience.
I believe it is a good idea that every human experience ASC of the depersonalization type with a detachment of the ego where one feel the oneness with the universe.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:24 am
I get what you mean, but I think they can, and did. If they are strong enough they open one to new experiences, challenge assumptions and help you notice things that you've unconsciously or barely consciously dismissed before. In my case they led to explorations, so that they could be repeated.
You are both right.
What I meant is that these experiences do not allow for knowledge, as knowledge is usually understood.
In fact, they do not provide objective knowledge.
They provide no evidence that I can hold on to as certain.
Yet objective knowledge, the irrefutable proof, is not really "true" knowledge.
Instead, it is these experiences that awaken true knowledge.
Because the Truth can only be within us.
I have never tried to make sure I try these experiences.
Because I don't think you can really take action to make them happen.
Rather, we need to open ourselves to the Truth, which is in us.
Looking more carefully where something doesn't add up. Letting ourselves be moved by the pathos of life, without closing ourselves off, but rather opening up and suffering with the world.
Then the experiences may or may not happen, but it is not up to us, as existing beings.
It is a surrender to ourselves, to who we really are.
bobmax wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:03 pm
You are both right.
What I meant is that these experiences do not allow for knowledge, as knowledge is usually understood.
In fact, they do not provide objective knowledge.
They provide no evidence that I can hold on to as certain.
Oh, but they can.
Yet objective knowledge, the irrefutable proof, is not really "true" knowledge.
Instead, it is these experiences that awaken true knowledge.
Because the Truth can only be within us.
Some say that.
I have never tried to make sure I try these experiences.
Because I don't think you can really take action to make them happen.
Meditation, chanting, shamanic practices, hypnosis, well, and a bunch of things on that list. There are skills involved that can be trained. You can also meet people who have these experiences and this can help challenge the judgments that these experiences are nto real, cannot be trained, have nothing to do with external reality, are only for certain people and more.
Looking more carefully where something doesn't add up. Letting ourselves be moved by the pathos of life, without closing ourselves off, but rather opening up and suffering with the world.
Then the experiences may or may not happen, but it is not up to us, as existing beings.
It is a surrender to ourselves, to who we really are.[/quote]Sure, that's right up my ally. I would mention the emotions include them as a part of myself and open myself to them.
I would be careful taking VA at face value. He wrote the following to you....
The problem with hallucinogens is they do not ensure every trip is a good experience as at times one can experience a VERY bad, horrific and terrible trip that one would hesitate to try it again.
Ayuasca is very powerful and of course you can have bad trips on in. There are much milder hallucinogens.
But also, one should be careful with 'bad trip.' Often an unpleasant experience gets labelled a bad trip but is actually very healing. If you suddenly get past - this is a psychological example - your anger at your father, say, and realize you miss closeness with him immensely, this may lead to terror and grief. But that need not be bad. Other more metaphysical realizations may and often will be disturbing, scary but this is not necessarily bad either. Note, I am saying, not necessarily. I am not saying people should just cast large amounts of drugs in their mouths and if the process feels bad you failed somehow to appreciate it
My concern is that VA often presents himself as having expertise or knowledge that it seems to me he doesn't have. Obviously treat us both with healthy skepticism. But I would think the environment you are in, the company you have when taking these things, your experience of going into yourself via therapy or whatever, how much social support you have in general, undealt with past trauma are all things to consider.
And by the way I am not particularly prohallucinogen. I do think in general there are better ways to go. But every practice of this kind will have its dark night of the soul, secular or religious. and this is not necessarily a bad thing.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:13 pm
Ayuasca is very powerful and of course you can have bad trips on in. There are much milder hallucinogens.
But also, one should be careful with 'bad trip.' Often an unpleasant experience gets labelled a bad trip but is actually very healing. If you suddenly get past - this is a psychological example - your anger at your father, say, and realize you miss closeness with him immensely, this may lead to terror and grief. But that need not be bad. Other more metaphysical realizations may and often will be disturbing, scary but this is not necessarily bad either. Note, I am saying, not necessarily. I am not saying people should just cast large amounts of drugs in their mouths and if the process feels bad you failed somehow to appreciate it
My concern is that VA often presents himself as having expertise or knowledge that it seems to me he doesn't have. Obviously treat us both with healthy skepticism. But I would think the environment you are in, the company you have when taking these things, your experience of going into yourself via therapy or whatever, how much social support you have in general, undealt with past trauma are all things to consider.
And by the way I am not particularly prohallucinogen. I do think in general there are better ways to go. But every practice of this kind will have its dark night of the soul, secular or religious. and this is not necessarily a bad thing.
Thank you.
I think it depends on the sensitivity of each one.
It also depends on his passion.
If one is already sensitive, perhaps it is not the case to look for other means of experiencing.
Life is enough.
Excuse me both if I allow myself.
But it seems to me that you are very sensitive and perhaps that is enough without having to force the game.
While VA seems to me very passionate. A passion that drives him to seek objective certainties.
I am of the opinion that there is no means available other than ourselves.
For the simple reason that God wants everything.
I think it depends on the sensitivity of each one.
It also depends on his passion.
Agreed.
If one is already sensitive, perhaps it is not the case to look for other means of experiencing.
Life is enough.
And one can organize life to increase the chances. That way, generally, one can immediatley break off an experience. You take Ayausca, well if it's too much you may have a few more hours of whatever you are experiencing. And you can get flashbacks and other long term effects, for good or ill. If you meditate, well, you can just stand up and shake it off if it feels wrong. The same with many other approaches. I am not ruling out drugs at all. Just saying there are differences.
Excuse me both if I allow myself.
Not quite sure what you meant, but I doubt you need to say Excuse, at least to me. I think individuals must make choices and likely using intuition and their own self-knowledge.
But it seems to me that you are very sensitive and perhaps that is enough without having to force the game.
Sometimes I think I am sensitive. Sometimes I think I notice that I am sensitive and others do not about themselves.
While VA seems to me very passionate. A passion that drives him to seek objective certainties.
I am of the opinion that there is no means available other than ourselves.
For the simple reason that God wants everything.
I am not sure what that last sentence means, but I think ultimately we are responsible for our decisions and intuition plays a huge role, which i think is generally agreeing with you here.