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Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:09 pm
by Gary Childress
When it comes to things that seem to be beyond all reasonable ability to know or verify--for example such as whether or not there is a God or whether or not there are "dimensions" to the world and our existences which transcend our average, every day experiences--do you have a belief one way or the other on such matters or do you find yourself like me, unable to decide one way or the other and therefore generally in a perpetual state of suspended judgement or "epoché" with respect to those things?
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:52 am
by -1-
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:09 pm
in a perpetual state of suspended judgement
"Would you like to see the pope at the end of a rope?"
-- Ozzie Osbourne, "Master of Reality" with Black Sabbath (Black Sabbath - musical group of the sixties and seventies, much of their records have been burnt by Southern Baptist congregations.)
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:01 pm
by Age
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:09 pm
When it comes to things that seem to be beyond all reasonable ability to know or verify--for example such as whether or not there is a God or whether or not there are "dimensions" to the world and our existences which transcend our average, every day experiences--do you have a belief one way or the other on such matters or do you find yourself like me, unable to decide one way or the other and therefore generally in a perpetual state of suspended judgement or "epoché" with respect to those things?
But NONE of those thing are beyond all reasonable ability to know or verify.
In FACT they have all already be resolved, and thus are already KNOWN.
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:23 pm
by Gary Childress
Age wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:01 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:09 pm
When it comes to things that seem to be beyond all reasonable ability to know or verify--for example such as whether or not there is a God or whether or not there are "dimensions" to the world and our existences which transcend our average, every day experiences--do you have a belief one way or the other on such matters or do you find yourself like me, unable to decide one way or the other and therefore generally in a perpetual state of suspended judgement or "epoché" with respect to those things?
But NONE of those thing are beyond all reasonable ability to know or verify.
In FACT they have all already be resolved, and thus are already KNOWN.
I'll take that as "no", you don't epoché.
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:30 pm
by bahman
We cannot reach any state of affair, truth for example, unless we firstly believe.
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:00 am
by Gary Childress
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:30 pm
We cannot reach any state of affair, truth for example, unless we firstly believe.
That is perhaps true with respect to any particular thing that is knowable, however, a person doesn't need to assert belief one way or the other on things that aren't knowable and aren't essential to everyday functioning. For example, I pretty much have to believe on some level that the external world exists in order to effectively survive. However, that's generally not the case with something like whether or not there is a God.
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:09 am
by bahman
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:00 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:30 pm
We cannot reach any state of affair, truth for example, unless we firstly believe.
That is true with respect to any particular thing that is knowable, however, a person doesn't need to assert belief one way or the other on things that aren't knowable and aren't essential to everyday functioning. For example, I pretty much have to believe on some level that the external world exists in order to effectively survive. However, that's generally not the case with something like whether or not there is a God.
God as a absolute being does not exist (I have an argument for that). We can however become gods (mind is eternal).
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:12 am
by Gary Childress
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:09 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:00 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:30 pm
We cannot reach any state of affair, truth for example, unless we firstly believe.
That is true with respect to any particular thing that is knowable, however, a person doesn't need to assert belief one way or the other on things that aren't knowable and aren't essential to everyday functioning. For example, I pretty much have to believe on some level that the external world exists in order to effectively survive. However, that's generally not the case with something like whether or not there is a God.
God as a absolute being does not exist (I have an argument for that). We can however become gods (mind is eternal).
What is your proof for God not existing? What is your proof for mind being eternal (by mind being eternal I assume you mean that our minds don't perish when our body does)?
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:25 am
by bahman
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:12 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:09 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:00 am
That is true with respect to any particular thing that is knowable, however, a person doesn't need to assert belief one way or the other on things that aren't knowable and aren't essential to everyday functioning. For example, I pretty much have to believe on some level that the external world exists in order to effectively survive. However, that's generally not the case with something like whether or not there is a God.
God as a absolute being does not exist (I have an argument for that). We can however become gods (mind is eternal).
What is your proof for God not existing?
1) The reality is unbound (following Cantor theorem), the best does not exist
2) God is defined as absolute, the best
3) Therefore there is no God
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:12 am
What is your proof for mind being eternal (by mind being eternal I assume you mean that our minds don't perish when our body does)?
Please let's see if we can agree on the previous topic.
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:58 am
by Gary Childress
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:25 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:12 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:09 am
God as a absolute being does not exist (I have an argument for that). We can however become gods (mind is eternal).
What is your proof for God not existing?
1) The reality is unbound (following Cantor theorem), the best does not exist
2) God is defined as absolute, the best
3) Therefore there is no God
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:12 am
What is your proof for mind being eternal (by mind being eternal I assume you mean that our minds don't perish when our body does)?
Please let's see if we can agree on the previous topic.
I disagree. That isn't proof that there is no God.
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:33 am
by bahman
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:58 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:25 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:12 am
What is your proof for God not existing?
1) The reality is unbound (following Cantor theorem), the best does not exist
2) God is defined as absolute, the best
3) Therefore there is no God
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:12 am
What is your proof for mind being eternal (by mind being eternal I assume you mean that our minds don't perish when our body does)?
Please let's see if we can agree on the previous topic.
I disagree. That isn't proof that there is no God.
What is wrong with the argument?
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:36 am
by Gary Childress
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:33 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:58 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:25 am
1) The reality is unbound (following Cantor theorem), the best does not exist
2) God is defined as absolute, the best
3) Therefore there is no God
Please let's see if we can agree on the previous topic.
I disagree. That isn't proof that there is no God.
What is wrong with the argument?
Too many assumptions concerning things that are beyond our ability to know with any kind of certainty.
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:45 am
by bahman
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:36 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:33 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:58 am
I disagree. That isn't proof that there is no God.
What is wrong with the argument?
Too many assumptions concerning things that are beyond our ability to know with any kind of certainty.
(2) is definition God so we cannot exclude it. So Your only problem could be with (1). Am I right?
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:57 am
by Gary Childress
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:45 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:36 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:33 am
What is wrong with the argument?
Too many assumptions concerning things that are beyond our ability to know with any kind of certainty.
(2) is definition God so we cannot exclude it. So Your only problem could be with (1). Am I right?
Both premises are suspect. How do you define God at all? Do you look at something with your eyes and say, "ah. Yep. That's what God is?" Even to say God is absolute, what is meant by that? Absolute what?
Suppose a burning bush materialized in front of you and said, "I'm God." By what means would you extrapolate anything from that other than you saw a burning bush which spoke and said, "I'm God". Is the burning bush God? How would you go about verifying it? And what is "God"?
Re: Do you believe or do you epoché?
Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:31 pm
by bahman
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:57 am
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:45 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:36 am
Too many assumptions concerning things that are beyond our ability to know with any kind of certainty.
(2) is definition God so we cannot exclude it. So Your only problem could be with (1). Am I right?
Both premises are suspect. How do you define God at all? Do you look at something with your eyes and say, "ah. Yep. That's what God is?" Even to say God is absolute, what is meant by that? Absolute what?
Suppose a burning bush materialized in front of you and said, "I'm God." By what means would you extrapolate anything from that other than you saw a burning bush which spoke and said, "I'm God". Is the burning bush God? How would you go about verifying it? And what is "God"?
By Absolute I mean the best.