What is space?

[Philosophy Explorer]

The question is simple, but the answer may not be. For example, in more recent times, scientists have been saying that space is never empty. We know that space can be modeled so that it gets bent and twisted by matter to create gravity. So I ask again, what is space?

PhilX

[Arising_uk]

It's the stuff you can move through.

[Philosophy Explorer]

It's the stuff you can move through.

So you mean water is space.

PhilX

[Arising_uk]

It's the stuff you can move through.

So you mean water is space.

PhilX

Yup, me and the fish agree.

You think air is not a fluid?

[Philosophy Explorer]

It's the stuff you can move through.

So you mean water is space.

PhilX

Yup, me and the fish agree.

You think air is not a fluid?

Irrelevant

PhilX

[Obvious Leo]

Which space are you referring to, Phil? You're a maths nerd so you'll be aware more than most that there are many different kinds of spaces.

[Philosophy Explorer]

Which space are you referring to, Phil? You're a maths nerd so you'll be aware more than most that there are many different kinds of spaces.

Well I'm not talking about mathematical space such as Euclidean, Riemann nor Lobachevskian space. I'm talking about physical space, the kind that has physical distance between two points, the kind that is said to be expanding (although it doesn't seem to have a boundary), the kind of space that makes one wonder in an expanding space how the new space is being formed (and where is it coming from?) I think with everything I've mentioned, I'm entitled to ask the question.

Now this article I've read says there's something deeper than space??? What else does our universe have to confuse us with further? The article doesn't explain. I think it's leaving us to sort it out philosophically if that can be done. Here's the article:

http://gizmodo.com/a-new-way-of-thinkin ... ng_test_ee

PhilX

[Obvious Leo]

I'm talking about physical space,

There's no such thing as physical space. In order for something to be definable as physical it must have physical properties and be able to perform physical work. If you're referring to a Cartesian space then you're talking about a mathematical co-ordinate system and in this respect it's no different from any other space. This is the canon position in every philosophy of mathematics which I've ever read.

[Philosophy Explorer]

I'm talking about physical space,

There's no such thing as physical space. In order for something to be definable as physical it must have physical properties and be able to perform physical work. If you're referring to a Cartesian space then you're talking about a mathematical co-ordinate system and in this respect it's no different from any other space. This is the canon position in every philosophy of mathematics which I've ever read.

As I just said I'm not talking about mathematical space. Before there was a concept of mathematical space, there was the concept of space itself which doesn't need math to explain it.

Every day when you do gardening, you leave your house to go outside which is a physical description and doesn't require math to understand. To go from here to there doesn't need math. How far you go does need math.

Now please explain your concept of physical space. And why you say it doesn't exist?

PhilX

Edit: I'm making this article part of this thread:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space

[Obvious Leo]

Now please explain your concept of physical space. And why you say it doesn't exist?

I didn't invent mathematical philosophy so it's not my concept, Phil. I have no concept of a physical space because I don't acknowledge the existence of such a thing. You're the one making the claim for its existence so the burden of explaining the physicality of the Cartesian space lies with you. Perhaps you could start with explaining how it expands. Does it just spread itself out a bit or do new bits of space arrive from somewhere to fill in the gaps?

[Philosophy Explorer]

Now please explain your concept of physical space. And why you say it doesn't exist?

I didn't invent mathematical philosophy so it's not my concept, Phil. I have no concept of a physical space because I don't acknowledge the existence of such a thing. You're the one making the claim for its existence so the burden of explaining the physicality of the Cartesian space lies with you. Perhaps you could start with explaining how it expands. Does it just spread itself out a bit or do new bits of space arrive from somewhere to fill in the gaps?

Note that Cartesian is mathematical which I'm not going by in this thread.

"Perhaps you could start with explaining how it expands. Does it just spread itself out a bit or do new bits of space arrive from somewhere to fill in the gaps?" First of all what gaps are you referring to? According to current science, space is never empty (what it's filled up with has not been explained, but that's a different story). Based on BBT, it says the universe/space is expanding, but scientists say that the universe has no boundary, that there is no beyond. About all I can say is that new space is forming constantly at an ever increasing rate which expands the universe.

So are you saying that space"s existence depends on a model? And let me turn the table on you, if so, which mathematical model does its existence depend on?

PhilX

[Obvious Leo]

About all I can say is that new space is forming constantly at an ever increasing rate which expands the universe.

Surely you can see that this is not a physical statement. Where is this "new space" coming from? What is it made of? What are its physical properties? Most of the modern theorists in foundational physics have come to accept that the "expanding space" is a merely a mathematical statement, as is the "curved space" of GR. It was once a commonplace statement in physics to declare that the universe can only be understood in the language of mathematics but in mathematical philosophy such a statement is pure nonsense. it's perfectly true that physics can only be understood in the language of mathematics but to extrapolate this usage to the universe itself simply doesn't logically follow. Mathematics is a symbolic language which can only be applied to abstract symbols but the symbols themselves have no meaning in the absence of a physical referent. If I have two apples in my fruit bowl I can mathematically take five apples out of it but this doesn't mean that I can therefore physically do the same thing.

So are you saying that space"s existence depends on a model?

No. What I'm saying refers specifically to the Cartesian space because this is the space which depends on a specific model of the universe, namely the 4D manifold of spacetime. This model unambiguously attributes a physicality to the Cartesian space but this assumption runs counter to all of mathematical philosophy going back for millennia. It also runs counter to most of the other major schools of philosophy dating back to the pre-Socratics and it most certainly runs counter to the modern sciences of cognitive neuroscience and the psychology of perception. In fact anybody who knows anything at all about how consciousness works knows bloody well that the 3-dimensional space of our everyday experience is exclusively a construct of the human mind. We aren't even all that good at it.

[Philosophy Explorer]

PhilX:

"About all I can say is that new space is forming constantly at an ever increasing rate which expands the universe."

Leo's response:

"Surely you can see that this is not a physical statement"

Actually I don't see that. I'm actually quoting what the scientists have been saying about space. I can't answer where this new space is coming from because that hasn't been explained (and is one of my questions plus it leads directly to my topic's title question). But it appears to be one of the current key assumptions about space which explains a number of facts, whether or not it's derived from math. So once again I ask, what is (physical) space?
What are its main properties?

PhilX

[Obvious Leo]

So once again I ask, what is (physical) space?
What are its main properties?

Good luck.

[marjoram_blues]

So once again I ask, what is (physical) space?
What are its main properties?

Good luck.

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before.

I've never ventured into the Phil. of Science space before; how bold am I.
If you knew what the main properties of physical space were, what would be the implications?
Be gentle with me.