Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

The Inglorious One
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:25 pm

Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by The Inglorious One »

To be Catholic or Protestant is only to describe an accident of birth or circumstances; it is only to admit one's past training and values, or perhaps one's restrictive bias. Such a commitment, no matter how deep and unyielding it seems, is only on the surface when compared with the depths of what we share with each other because we are human. On the other hand, the difference between true religion and false religion is severe. In God Lives, onetime priest James Kavanaugh tells of his struggles to find God outside the Catholic Church; and in his book godless, author Dan Barker talks about why he, a onetime evangelical preacher, became an atheist. The difference in writing styles is stark, even disturbing: Kavanaugh writes as though he feels without thinking and Barker writes as though he thinks without feeling. Of the two, I don't know which is the more destructive.

To be fair, I couldn't read either book all the way through. The one was like reading a book-length version of one of Lacewing's emotion-based rants and the other was just the same old stuff we hear form other atheists only a bit more informed—though still wholly ignorant as to what religion is really about.
Either the living God is, or he is not. Either the ultimate Reality is alive, conscious and intelligent, or it is not. If it is, then it is what we call God. If it is not, it must be some form of blind process, law, energy or substance entirely devoid of any meaning save that which man himself gives to it. Nobody has ever been able to suggest a reasonable alternative. To say that Reality is quite beyond thought, and therefore cannot be designated by such small, human terms as “conscious” and “intelligent” is only to say that God is immeasurably greater than man. And the theist will agree that he is infinitely greater. To argue that Reality is not a blind energy but a “living principle,” an “impersonal super-consciousness,” or an “impersonal mind” is merely to play with words and indulge in terminological contradictions. A “living principle” means about as much as a black whiteness, and to speak of an “impersonal mind” is like talking about a circular square. It is the result, of course, of misunderstanding the word “personal” as used of God—as if it meant that God is an organism, form, or composite structure like man, something resembling Haeckel’s “gaseous vertebrate.” But the word is not used at all in that sense. From many points of view the term “personal” is badly chosen, but it means simply that God is alive in the fullest possible way.

If the ultimate Reality is indeed a blind energy or process devoid of inherent meaning, if it is merely an unconscious permutation and oscillation of waves, particles or what not, certain consequences follow. Human consciousness is obviously a part or an effect of this Reality. We are bound, then, to come to one of two conclusions. On the one hand, we shall have to say that the effect, consciousness, is a property lacking to its entire cause—in short, that something has come out of nothing. Or, on the other hand, we shall have to say that consciousness is a special form of unconsciousness—in short, that it is not really conscious. For the first of these two conclusions there neither is nor can be any serious argument; not even a rationalist would maintain the possibility of an effect without a sufficient cause. The main arguments against theism follow, in principle, the second conclusion—that the properties and qualities of human nature, consciousness, reason, meaning, and the like, do not constitute any new element or property over and above the natural and mechanical processes which cause them. Because Reality itself is a blind mechanism, so is man. Meaning, consciousness, and intelligence are purely arbitrary and relative terms given to certain highly complex mechanical structures.

But the argument dissolves itself. If consciousness and intelligence are forms of mechanism, the opinions and judgements of intelligence are products of mechanical (or statistical) necessity. This must apply to all opinions and judgements, for all are equally mere phenomena of the mechanical world-process. There can be no question of one judgement being more true than another, any more than there can be question of the phenomenon fish being more true than the phenomenon bird. But among these phenomena are the judgements of the rationalist, and to them he must apply the logic of his own reasoning. He must admit that they have no more claim to truth than the judgements of the theist, and that if rationalism is true it is very probably not true. This is intellectual suicide—the total destruction of thought—to such a degree that even the rationalist’s own concepts of mechanism, unconscious process, statistical necessity, and the like, also become purely arbitrary and meaningless terms. To hold such a view of the universe consistently, one must separate oneself, the observer, from it. But this cannot be done, for which reason a contemporary philosopher has complained that man’s subjective presence constitutes the greatest obstacle to philosophical knowledge!

Now this is pure nonsense. Man’s subjective presence is, of course, the very condition of knowledge both of the universe and of God. It is precisely the existence of man in the universe as a conscious, reflecting self that makes it logically necessary to believe in God. A universe containing self-conscious beings must have a cause sufficient to produce such beings, a cause which must at least have the property of self-consciousness. This property cannot simply “evolve” from protoplasm or stellar energy, because this would mean that more consciousness is the result of less consciousness and no consciousness. Evolution is, therefore, a transition from the potential to the actual, wherein the new powers and qualities constantly acquired are derived, not from the potential, but from a superior type of life which already possesses them. -- Alan Watts, Behold the Spirit


Watts is wrong about one thing: some rationalists do maintain the possibility of an effect without a sufficient cause. That's because their will-to-disbelieve, instead of being used as a defense against charlatans and fakery, involves a depth of skepticism that is indistinguishable from complete cowardice—fear of committing to something logically necessary but outside one's physical control.

What atheism protests most, methinks, and rightly so, is the “domesticated” god, the god of the televangelists and institutional religions; a god that is bounded by human ideas and beliefs. I can empathize with that. But Watts' argument doesn't say anything at all about God, only that God is. It suggests, however, something that is objectionable to both atheists and theists: that Meister Eckhart was spot-on when he said, “The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me.”
Jaded Sage
Posts: 1100
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:00 pm

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by Jaded Sage »

It's time for you to progress beyond Alan. You need William James' Varieties of Religious Experience's chapter on Mysticism. After that, Katz's Mysticism and Philosophical Analysis.

Start here: https://csrs.nd.edu/assets/59930/williams_1902.pdf
The Inglorious One
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:25 pm

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by The Inglorious One »

Note the title. The comparison between James and Watts is irrelevant.

The point is that a meaningful discussion in a philosophy of religion forum must begin with an understanding of what is meant by "God," and atheists in this forum generally don't know what the f*** they're their talking about--or even care to know. The excerpt makes that clear.
Jaded Sage
Posts: 1100
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:00 pm

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by Jaded Sage »

I wasn't making a comparison. I was giving advice.
The Inglorious One
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:25 pm

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by The Inglorious One »

Jaded Sage wrote:I wasn't making a comparison. I was giving advice.
Thanks, but I read James about 30 years ago. It's like suggesting I should go backwards
Jaded Sage
Posts: 1100
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:00 pm

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by Jaded Sage »

The Inglorious One wrote:
Jaded Sage wrote:I wasn't making a comparison. I was giving advice.
Thanks, but I read James about 30 years ago. It's like suggesting I should go backwards

You went from James to Watts? He's for teenagers.
The Inglorious One
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:25 pm

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by The Inglorious One »

Jaded Sage wrote:
The Inglorious One wrote:
Jaded Sage wrote:I wasn't making a comparison. I was giving advice.
Thanks, but I read James about 30 years ago. It's like suggesting I should go backwards

You went from James to Watts? He's for teenagers.
I've always preferred being young at heart. Besides, if Watts, Eckhart and (if I recall) James are right, concepts obscure rather than reveal reality.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Post by henry quirk »

"What atheism protests most, methinks, and rightly so, is the “domesticated” god, the god of the televangelists and institutional religions; a god that is bounded by human ideas and beliefs."

A nail hit squarely on the head.
The Inglorious One
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:25 pm

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by The Inglorious One »

henry quirk wrote: A nail hit squarely on the head.
The "domesticated" god is the only one atheists address. Things like "Is it moral for God to punish us?" get more attention by far than questions and comments that pertain to the more traditional (but currently less popular) God whose immanence is as real as the air we breathe.

I used Watts' argument for its clarity and cogency, but I'm not so naive as to think atheists here would respond to such an "undomesticated" beginning to a philosophy of religion. I sincerely doubt atheists here can even understand it. :wink:

A book review: The one theology book all atheists really should read
_______________

Note:
William James is interesting to read because he is a psychologist and a philosopher who had interest in and sympathy for religion and religious experience, but it's been so long since I read his work (I recall enjoying The Pluralistic Universe the most) that, thanks to JS, I'm going to refresh my memory.
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

The Inglorious One wrote:
henry quirk wrote: A nail hit squarely on the head.
The "domesticated" god is the only one atheists address. Things like "Is it moral for God to punish us?" get more attention by far than questions and comments that pertain to the more traditional (but currently less popular) God whose immanence is as real as the air we breathe.
.
How many gods are there?

The reason why atheists attack that particular god, is that you ignore it, because you actually believe in it, and its the one that does all the damage to society - not that you seen bothered that millions believe this nonsense.

This immanence bullshit, is functionless and of no consequence whatever. It's totally without merit as an idea and can be ignored as such.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Post by henry quirk »

"The "domesticated" god is the only one atheists address."

Not so. A great many, yes. Most, probably. But not 'all'.

Atheism is no more monolithic than theism.

Some folks, atheists, aren't 'anti-god', just 'anti-sky father'.

For myself, as I mentioned elsewhere, Howard's Crom is a far more reasonable (or acceptable, to me) 'god' (grim, distant, unreachable). Howard's 'god' sez 'I gave each of you the means to live as you like and can within the constraints of the world, so go do that and stop pestering me with petiton and prayer. You're each on your own.'

That's a god I can get behind: one who brings or give meaning to the world, but leaves the sussing out of that meaning to those wiley enough to hunt it down.
User avatar
Gustav Bjornstrand
Posts: 682
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:25 pm

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by Gustav Bjornstrand »

Hobbles wrote:How many gods are there?
57
The Inglorious One
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:25 pm

Re: Philosophy of Religion Begins Here

Post by The Inglorious One »

:::sigh:::

I knew atheists here didn't have tha intellectual depth to grasp something as elementary as Watts' statement.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 16379
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: 🔥AMERICA🔥
Contact:

Post by henry quirk »

You're right...it's shameful and more than a little dangerous...really, these shallow, non-believing brutes running around with all their shallow, non-believing brutishness...something should, must, be done about them!

A nice 'preserve', yeah, that's the ticket! A place where they can shallowly, brutishly, not-believe far from all persons of depth and belief.

Yep, I like that idea...gonna write me a letter to the Orthodoxy and suggest a 'preserve'.
The Inglorious One
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:25 pm

Re:

Post by The Inglorious One »

henry quirk wrote:You're right...it's shameful and more than a little dangerous...really, these shallow, non-believing brutes running around with all their shallow, non-believing brutishness...something should, must, be done about them!

A nice 'preserve', yeah, that's the ticket! A place where they can shallowly, brutishly, not-believe far from all persons of depth and belief.

Yep, I like that idea...gonna write me a letter to the Orthodoxy and suggest a 'preserve'.
Yeah, that's about par for this forum. Few here even know what philosophy is.

Philosophy's aim is to get reason's license for belief or disbelief and neither of the books I mentioned in the OP, one theistic without a church and the other theist-turned-atheist did not do that in an intellectually satisfying way. The excerpt from Behold the Spirit does, but makes no demand other than reason's assent. Unreasoned skepticism should be skeptical of itself because it amounts to nothing more than one being paralyzed by fear of error.
Post Reply