Don't tax the rich...

[Dalek Prime]

... Tax the corporate institutions that hold the bulk of their wealth. Stop them from playing the tax-exempt shell games.

[bobevenson]

The only proper form of taxation is a single tax on property, property being defined as anything with intrinsic market value. There should be no income tax, sales tax or the thousands of other taxes in existence. Money or profits obviously should not be taxed since while they have market value, they only have legal value, not intrinsic value. I can't understand why you can't get that through your head.

[Skip]

If only we knew how "intrinsic" and "market" fit together to make a definite quantifiable value.

[bobevenson]

If only we knew how "intrinsic" and "market" fit together to make a definite quantifiable value.

A $100 bill has value, but not intrinsic value other than the value of its paper and ink. If you buy something with that $100 bill, whatever you buy does have $100 intrinsic value. In other words, money is merely a medium of exchange of actual property. I hope that helps to clarify things for you.

[Skip]

Not even the tiniest little bit. First, intrinsic means "contained wholly within the thing itself", so it can't be subject to an extrinsic agency, or any external factors. Second, if the $ has no intrinsic value, then exchanging it for objects won't give it anything but an ephemeral, extrinsic, situational and relative value. Therefore the intrinsic value of whatever it may buy can't be pegged to the value of the dollar, because something that costs $100 today may be going for $10 next week. So, you have paid an arbitrary price according to an arbitrary medium of exchange, in an arbitrary market - and have not learned the intrinsic value of anything. How will you decide the amount of tax?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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The rich need to pay more taxes.
~ Donald J Trump ~


Donald Trump: Let's Tax The Rich To Pay The National Debt.



"By my calculations, 1 percent of Americans, who control 90 percent of the wealth in this country, would be affected by my plan," Trump said.

"The other 99 percent of the people would get deep reductions in their federal income taxes," he said.

Eliminating the national debt would save the federal government 200 billion a year in interest payments, Trump said. He proposes to earmark half the savings for middle class tax cuts, and the other half for Social Security.
~ Donald J Trump ~




The Republican/Socialist Party


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[bobevenson]

Not even the tiniest little bit. First, intrinsic means "contained wholly within the thing itself", so it can't be subject to an extrinsic agency, or any external factors. Second, if the $ has no intrinsic value, then exchanging it for objects won't give it anything but an ephemeral, extrinsic, situational and relative value. Therefore the intrinsic value of whatever it may buy can't be pegged to the value of the dollar, because something that costs $100 today may be going for $10 next week. So, you have paid an arbitrary price according to an arbitrary medium of exchange, in an arbitrary market - and have not learned the intrinsic value of anything. How will you decide the amount of tax?

I'm sorry, but you're getting hung up on words. Let me try one more time. If a $100 bill was declared invalid money by the U.S. Government, the only intrinsic market value of it would be what you could trade it for to wipe somebody's ass, and it probably wouldn't come close to what you could buy with it today. That is the difference between market value and intrinsic market value.

[Skip]

That's the obvious description of all currency. It doesn't tell me anything about the intrinsic value of the wealth being taxed.

[bobevenson]

That's the obvious description of all currency. It doesn't tell me anything about the intrinsic value of the wealth being taxed.

Let me clarify something, I am not talking about "wealth," which includes money, stocks and bonds, and other types of paper that has legal value, I'm talking about actual property that has actual value. It is actual property and only actual property that is being taxed. The range of intrinsic market value of this property is estimated by outside auditors hired by the government for this purpose, similar to the way real estate taxes are formulated today, the only difference being that taxation under the AEP applies to everything.

[dionisos]

You should speak about "final value", or something like it, like Skip said, "intrinsic" is a very bad word for what you are describing.
"final value" would be defined by : "something that people buy for itself, and not for the only reason to exchange it in the market"
(final, because all the other exchanges we do, we do them for, finally, have these kind of things)
I think it is not a very well definition, and it is subjective, but i think it is near of what you want to say.

Now imagine we put your system in place, and imagine i am have 100 millions, i will just sell whatever i don’t use, and buy whatever i want.
I want a new house, i buy it and sell the others, i want whatever service, i just buy it, any service i want, and i will almost don’t pay tax, because i have only few properties at all time.
Still, i have whatever i want, make people work for me whenever i want, i just have to play with my properties, i just have to switch, or pay someone to do it.

Now you can tell this have some benefits, like having less empty houses by example, i still think it is not a very good system.

[Skip]

Let me clarify something, I am not talking about "wealth," which includes money, stocks and bonds, and other types of paper that has legal value, I'm talking about actual property that has actual value. It is actual property and only actual property that is being taxed.

It is actual property that constitutes actual wealth. Paper assets are not actual wealth; they are arbitrary representations of wealth, for purposes of trading. How does one evaluate the actual property - factories, houses, lumber, land, mines, landmines, sheep, robots, subway cars, peaches, silver earrings and baby buggies - that somebody owns?

The range of intrinsic market value of this property is estimated by outside auditors...

Outside of where? Who trains them? Who certifies them and vouches for their integrity?

... hired by the government for this purpose, similar to the way real estate taxes are formulated today,

Which is according to the $value calculated on a scale. You still don't have a standard, other than a market where arbitrary dollars buy things at fluctuating prices.

[bobevenson]

I give up, none of you people have the slightest fucking idea of what you're talking about. I try to explain things in as simple a format as I can, but to absolutely no avail. Just go ahead and live in your total economic ignorance.

[Skip]

Well, thanks for trying, anyway.
If you come up with a better articulation of your principles, and maybe some concrete examples, I'd be happy to read them.

[bobevenson]

The only proper function of government is social integration, like a traffic cop keeping people from running into each other. This includes personal protection and the protection of property, property being defined as anything with intrinsic market value. Since the ultimate financial resource to accomplish this function is the property being protected, the only proper form of taxation is a single tax on this property. Bob the Baptist, a divinely inspired prophet of all things spiritual, political and economic, has spoken.