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Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:41 pm
by Immanuel Can
Harbal wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:32 pm
A quick reference to Google says that over 50% of the population of your country call themselves Christian of some kind,
Where you live, they have a national "Church." And the current head of it is an unrepentant adulterer who declares he doesn't even believe that Anglicanism is the only "faith." :shock: So much for his commitment to his creed.

That's the problem with the "self-identification" criterion. It never works. It basically treats everybody born in a nominally "Christian" area, as opposed to an Islamic or Hindu one, as if they were some kind of "Christian."

But it takes more than calling yourself a "bicycle" to make you one. And it takes much more than your "heritage" or geography or culture to make a person a real Christian.

In fact, the only way to know what an ideology or belief system really achieves is to look at the people who don't just use the name, but who actually believe and practice what it tells them.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:42 pm
by Immanuel Can
Harbal wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:37 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:30 pm
Harbal wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:26 pm Present them with a threat, and then offer them protection against it for a price.
Or, to look at it another way, present them with what they're already doing to themselves, and offer them a chance to escape it, by paying the price for it Yourself. That's the real plan.
Well it can't be denied that that strategy has had some success.
The one I suggested? Or the one you did? They're not the same strategy, of course.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:29 pm
by Harbal
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:41 pm Where you live, they have a national "Church." And the current head of it is an unrepentant adulterer who declares he doesn't even believe that Anglicanism is the only "faith." :shock: So much for his commitment to his creed.
I didn't know this, but I'm okay with it. I find the C of E quite harmless, but then I don't know what influence they might be exerting behind the scenes.
That's the problem with the "self-identification" criterion. It never works. It basically treats everybody born in a nominally "Christian" area, as opposed to an Islamic or Hindu one, as if they were some kind of "Christian."
But, to non-members of your particular brand of Christianity, aren't you just self-identifying too?
But it takes more than calling yourself a "bicycle" to make you one. And it takes much more than your "heritage" or geography or culture to make a person a real Christian.
Yes, but there is a very wide variation among the things that are entitled to be called bicycle.
In fact, the only way to know what an ideology or belief system really achieves is to look at the people who don't just use the name, but who actually believe and practice what it tells them.
Well two very different types could both tell me they were Christians and I would just have to accept it. As far as I'm concerned, if someone says they are Christian, they are Christian. In order for your point to have any meaning, you would have to be putting it to someone who has similar convictions to yours.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:31 pm
by Harbal
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:42 pm
The one I suggested? Or the one you did? They're not the same strategy, of course.
Your strategy. I was conceding the point that many have fallen for it.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:11 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:28 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:17 pm The Martyr's Whimper.
:D Not a "whimper," chum. I'm not asking for...nor expecting...your sympathy. I know I won't get it. I don't expect it. I expect exactly what I get. Jesus Christ Himself told us it would be so. "If they hated Me," He said,"they will hate you [disciples] also."

But what He also said is this: that God's mercy is doled out in the proportions you give it to others yourself. You'll want to be mindful of that, in your own interests, I'm certain.
What is impossible for you to understand, given your pious investments, is that I laugh at the whole display that you act out here. You are a terrible actor and your melodrama results in bathos and false-pathos.

What you fail to see, and it is a substantial failing on your part, is that in a significant degree what people resist in you is that which I have named Hebrew idea-imperialism. You cannot actually see this mechanism accurately. You do not, therefore, understand significant aspects of the necessity of rebelling against these imposed structures. Your pious commitments and your arrogating assertions (these two things function in perverse unison) link you into a power-dynamic that had to, simply had to, be shorn away from.

None of this can you understand even glimmeringly.

However, and with that said, when 'the common people' who never were very well educated in real categories of intellection are ripped away from the ethical restraining system that functioned (er-hum) tyrannically in them and around them, when this was ripped away these types, these irresponsible types, who never really had structures of inner restrain established in them, were seduced by all sorts of different forces & powers. Sensuality and the glories of unrestrained in-n-out of course and then everything else available in a Garden of Earthly Delights, but there is another element: business today prefers a person to be incapable of mounting any resistance at all to the machinations of the consumer-inducement marketing.

A strong, upstanding Christian ethic functioned, as all sound religious ethical ststems do, as a sort of protection against such conglomerations of interest as is modern capital enterprise. So business (an ideology of marketing, of PR and advertising propaganda) benefits from the undermining of cultural Christianity. The poor atomized dolt, incapable of real intellection and real, genuine self-imposed restraint, becomes a *victim* of forces and powers that surround us today. They all *seek to have their way with us*.

The vulgar, debased average person of today, the end-result of entire causal processes that *create* such an individual, suffers in the present dispensation because he cannot *locate himself* within a genuine personal and also cultural power. His function is to be the victim and to be guided and controlled by immensely powerful force. And far less can he locate himself within metaphysical categories. To see them and appreciate them requires a training he cannot access.

Now, along comes hyper-pious Immanuel Can with his terrible threat and his terrible promises. "Save yourselves!" he shouts "or you will burn in hell!" This amounts to a social and a socially-conventional threat to get with the program of those sorts who run the churches and define the religious modalities to those who appear in their congregations. So your own Evangelical Christianity is a servant, a perverse servant, to far greater political, social, cultural and economic -- indeed global -- enterprises.

All of this you fail to see. No part of this do you ever talk about nor have you ever talked about it.

You do, indeed, locate yourself within conventional social Evangelical Christianity. One notices this when you begin to complain about the 'Democrats' all all the naughty things they are up to. These are not at all immaterial to the problem that we face today, or to the current that we are in and which moves us all along inexorably. But conventional Evangelical Christian doctrine -- its modes, its focus, its political dimension -- are deeply entrenched with extremely unsavory machinations. Not the least being, as I have pointed out many times, is Evangelical Christianity's blind support for *Israel* due to the metaphysical assertion that one must *bless the Jews* to receive god's blessing!

Now, you talk about 'salvation' but have never made any sufficient case for even what you are talking about. "Salvation from the consequences of sin" you have said. I completely reject the basis of this assertion. I have to do so to get out from under the control that you seek to assert through it. But this does not mean that I must not or should not or will not take charge of my life. I have actually worked through it, psychologically and if you will emotionally. I can tell you about this, and I have told you about it, but you cannot hear. Why can't you hear? Because you are gripped by and locked into specific descriptions of metaphysical truths and leashed to the edifice of Evangelicalism.

But salvation, for us today, cannot mean what you believe that it does mean. So your *preaching* simply has no reach -- except among a certain class of people disposed to it or prepared for it. For example in the Third World where you have carried on your missionary work. But the sociological aspect of the success you have there (Christianity is expanding tremendously in the global south) is an element that you cannot consider from a removed perspective. But this is, of course, another story . . .
I'm not asking for...nor expecting...your sympathy. I know I won't get it. I don't expect it. I expect exactly what I get.
Christianity today, and certainly Judaism before it, establish an opposition to the world that evokes oppression and condemnation. This comes about because by definition Christianity, and Judaism, declare all other modalities of spirituality to be evil and demonic. Inside of Christianity and inside of Judaism are the root causes of the reactions that are received. Once you have seen that it is impossible to unsee it.

Begin to see some of these things you pitiable oppressed child. Quit the ultra-pious rehearsals. Understand that your theatrical rehearsal simply does not move the audience.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:59 pm
by Belinda
Harbal wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:03 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:00 pm
We may be merely the chattering classes but maybe we can serve some good purpose after all.
Well I'm trying to do my bit. :wink:
I have read five Barbara Pym stories. Thanks for the recommendation.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:03 pm
by Harbal
Belinda wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:59 pm
I have read five Barbara Pym stories. Thanks for the recommendation.
Have you really? That's great. :)

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:41 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:57 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:59 am Murder someone because they insulted a statue.
Judaism doesn' t have statues, Gary.
Sorry, then murder someone for offending an invisible being. I would think visible beings standing right in front of us are more worthy of care and concern.
.
Seriously, IC. How would you like it if you were living among a bunch of Hindus or something who told you constantly that you were mistaken in your beliefs and were going to hell for no other reason than you were reading the wrong books?
Funny you should say that, Gary. That's exactly how I live...not among Hindus, though, but in a secular population cold and hostile to faith, proud of their own ignorance and quick to abuse Christians.

I grew up and have lived and worked in a secular educational world, the attitude of which ranged from dismissive to abusive, and the media of which is totally insulting to my faith. They tell me I follow a "superstititous" book (that they usually have never read), or that I'm only believing because of "Ignorance," (when I've not only read sources in my own belief system but have read many of their most radical authors, in fact). They accuse me and my like of attrocities we never had anything to do with. They call us "religious." They call us "right-wing" and "nuts." They insult my God regularly, calling Him a "delusion" or a "tyrant" or a "myth". They make movies and TV shows that ridicule us, revile us in magazines, books, internet sites... They try to silence us whenever we speak the truth. And when we encourage them to embrace God's offer of salvation, they often mock, slander and spit.

And all the time, we beg them to consider salvation. The abuse flows one way.

If you haven't noticed, people aren't always particularly kind here, either. Just saying. But what should we care?

Maybe you noticed: we follow a Man whom the world nailed to a cross.
Yes and in exchange for our calling you superstitious and ignorant you call us blasphemers heathens and what not. We all have wonderful names for each other. Christians have been no exception to slinging accusations at others.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:50 pm
by iambiguous
Sculptor wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:15 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:58 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:37 pm

I'll just put you In Martin H's Box.
Someone has to keep him company.
Okay, but you'll burn in Hell for it.
WHy for putting you there, or for keeping Heidegger company?
Stick to pontificating. Leave the clever repartee to me.

Oh, and be sure to let me know when you finally convince IC and his objectivist ilk that, given everything you and you alone know about the very existence of existence itself, it is not attributable to the Christian God.

Even though, as IC keeps reminding you, it says that it is right there in the Christian Bible!

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:09 pm
by Lacewing
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:41 pm the only way to know what an ideology or belief system really achieves is to look at the people who don't just use the name, but who actually believe and practice what it tells them.
Agreed. This is important. This is why so many people have turned away from Christianity and its followers.

> Consider all of the persecution that Christians (and other religious zealots) have unleashed onto non-theists over the ages.

> Consider the current swell of insane political Christians in the U.S., demonstrating how they will believe in anything if it suits their story.

> Consider the way you, yourself, represent Christianity on this forum through the distorted means that are continually pointed out to you.

All of the examples above are self-indulgent in the crafting of self-fulfilling prophecies at any/all costs, even by creating and administrating such "evil" as they imagine and claim that they rise above.

The Christian ideology has many diversely corrupted faces and practices -- that's how creative humans are.

The Bible book that you claim validates and sanctifies your beliefs is a convoluted narrative that has been manipulated and widely interpreted by the many faces of Christianity.

Do you really think that none of this can be obvious to those who have chosen not to subscribe to, nor become intoxicated with, such nonsense? Like a severely drunk person at a party who insists they can drive because Jesus will be at the wheel, you're oblivious to all else.

Meanwhile...

You are no more divine, nor do you represent it more so, than anyone else here. You are no more persecuted than you are a persecutor. The dance you do here unveils perfectly (for humankind) the nonsense by which Christianity is founded and maintained and projected. Good job! How would you imagine that you're doing anything more than that here?

Naturally, all that is 'good' can and is accessed and manifested in countless ways by everyone.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:29 pm
by Sculptor
iambiguous wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:50 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:15 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:58 am

Okay, but you'll burn in Hell for it.
WHy for putting you there, or for keeping Heidegger company?
Stick to pontificating. Leave the clever repartee to me.

Oh, and be sure to let me know when you finally convince IC and his objectivist ilk that, given everything you and you alone know about the very existence of existence itself, it is not attributable to the Christian God.

Even though, as IC keeps reminding you, it says that it is right there in the Christian Bible!
The thread is about "christianity" not about the contents of the bible.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:23 pm
by Immanuel Can
Harbal wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:29 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:41 pm Where you live, they have a national "Church." And the current head of it is an unrepentant adulterer who declares he doesn't even believe that Anglicanism is the only "faith." :shock: So much for his commitment to his creed.
I didn't know this, but I'm okay with it. I find the C of E quite harmless, but then I don't know what influence they might be exerting behind the scenes.
Well, to be fair, it's not the whole C of E. There are, I don't doubt, sincere and committed members of such congregations...and I know some. But the putative "head of the church" is not among them, it would seem; and his case indicates that it is quite possible to be in highest standing in a nominally Christian institution, and still be devoid of serious beliefs.

That's the problem of nominalism.
But, to non-members of your particular brand of Christianity, aren't you just self-identifying too?
For a person to be a Christian, "self-identification" is not enough. Of course, it's a small piece of the puzzle, but the evidence Christ demanded of us is "metanoia," in the Greek -- a changed mind, issuing in a changed life. In fact, He says that in the final Judgment, many will say to Him, "Lord, Lord..." to whom He will say, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity; for I never knew you." (Mtt. 7:22-23) Thus, He says, there will be many false "self-identifiers" who are not better than that.
Yes, but there is a very wide variation among the things that are entitled to be called bicycle.
Indeed. But also non-negotiables. Without two actual wheels, nothing is a "bi- cycle." And without being a pedal mode of transportation, nothing is a "real bicycle," even among things that look like one.

In the same way, a Christian may well vary in regard to things like culture, habit, preference, language and ceremony. But no matter the case, it always takes more than a name to make a Christian.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone says they are Christian, they are Christian.
Christ obviously sees things differently from that.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:24 pm
by Immanuel Can
Harbal wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:31 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:42 pm
The one I suggested? Or the one you did? They're not the same strategy, of course.
Your strategy. I was conceding the point that many have fallen for it.
Either that, or they've realized what was actually the best thing to do.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:35 pm
by iambiguous
Sculptor wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:29 pm
The thread is about "christianity" not about the contents of the bible.
On the contrary, as with IC, this thread is about whatever you and your objectivist ilk insist Christianity about.

That's my point.

This and rooting the psychology objectivism itself in the points I raise on these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

And, again, Christianity itself is but one of the many, many, many One True Paths from which existentially any particular individual might choose from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies

Which one is yours?

Then the part where, in my view, what you believe the One True Path is -- God or No God -- is not nearly as important as sustaining the comfort and the consolation of having convinced yourself that you are on one.

In other words, it's enabling one to jettison the "brute facticity" embedded in being but an "infinitesimally insignificant speck of existence in the vastness of all there is" and anchoring the Self to something that is so much bigger than a fractured and fragmented "I" that propels most objectivists.

And God knows [if there is one] that I would love to be on that One True Path again myself.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:36 pm
by Harbal
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:23 pm
For a person to be a Christian, "self-identification" is not enough. Of course, it's a small piece of the puzzle, but the evidence Christ demanded of us is "metanoia," in the Greek -- a changed mind, issuing in a changed life. In fact, He says that in the final Judgment, many will say to Him, "Lord, Lord..." to whom He will say, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity; for I never knew you." (Mtt. 7:22-23) Thus, He says, there will be many false "self-identifiers" who are not better than that.
Well I'll let the other, (so called) Christians respond to that, it's none of my business.
IC wrote:
Harbal wrote:As far as I'm concerned, if someone says they are Christian, they are Christian.
Christ obviously sees things differently from that.
But how Christ sees it is not my concern, is it? :?