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"perpetuated by Hamas" is a distortion.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:49 pmI don't. This is a "case" I have never made. And I do not think it.more sinned against than sinning,
However, in the present instance, it seems that this war was indeed both instigated and perpetuated by Hamas, not Israel. So that much is true, in the present case.
I love the way religious types seem to be more likely to support genocide.phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:09 pm"perpetuated by Hamas" is a distortion.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:49 pmI don't. This is a "case" I have never made. And I do not think it.more sinned against than sinning,
However, in the present instance, it seems that this war was indeed both instigated and perpetuated by Hamas, not Israel. So that much is true, in the present case.
Israel can stop today and there will be a ceasefire.
They're still firing rockets. They're still using human shields. They still won't surrender, so as to save civilians from the war they caused. They swear to fight to the death, to the last man, and to wipe Israel off the map from the river to the sea.phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:09 pm"perpetuated by Hamas" is a distortion.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:49 pmI don't. This is a "case" I have never made. And I do not think it.more sinned against than sinning,
However, in the present instance, it seems that this war was indeed both instigated and perpetuated by Hamas, not Israel. So that much is true, in the present case.
There are some texts in Islam and Judaism that seem to support it.I love the way religious types seem to be more likely to support genocide.
Nobody's "supporting" the war. What I'm asking is, "What's your plan for letting it end?" And so far, everybody just seems to think it's fine if the Jews stop fighting and let Hamas continue.phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:24 pmThere are some texts in Islam and Judaism that seem to support it.I love the way religious types seem to be more likely to support genocide.
I don't really get how Christians can take the positions that they do. As I have said several times, the continued support for the attack on Gaza appears to be contrary to Christian teachings.
I've already said several times that Israel should immediately stop, have a ceasefire and get the hostages back.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:39 pmNobody's "supporting" the war. What I'm asking is, "What's your plan for letting it end?" And so far, everybody just seems to think it's fine if the Jews stop fighting and let Hamas continue.phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:24 pmThere are some texts in Islam and Judaism that seem to support it.I love the way religious types seem to be more likely to support genocide.
I don't really get how Christians can take the positions that they do. As I have said several times, the continued support for the attack on Gaza appears to be contrary to Christian teachings.
What's your option?
Israel is obviously in favor of war until Hamas is gone. Western countries unfortunately support Israel.phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:48 pmI've already said several times that Israel should immediately stop, have a ceasefire and get the hostages back.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:39 pmNobody's "supporting" the war. What I'm asking is, "What's your plan for letting it end?" And so far, everybody just seems to think it's fine if the Jews stop fighting and let Hamas continue.
What's your option?
This is a tiresome game that you are playing.
Before democracy comes self-determination.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:53 pm One thing that we have not touched on here is the link between Left-oriented activism for *Palestinian rights* which connects to the entire, let's say, Left and Progressive agenda, and the problems this poses. It is a curious problem: when one begins to conceive of becoming liberated, or liberating oneself, from oppression and in this case a *brutal occupation* (to use the common term) one requires an ideological framework. On what basis do I have a right to demand, or claim and attain, my liberation?
We in the Occident will always refer, generally, to our liberal traditions. Therefore, we say that what must happening in Palestine-Israel is that it must become a democracy. Similar to what was proposed for South Africa.
As far as I am aware all *liberation movements* of the modern times are grounded in Left-Progressive politics. So the Occidental Left-Progressive gets behind and *supports* the Palestinian movement (and other liberation movements) but the people being liberated are not inclined to Occidental liberalism, and in facxt may well be inclined to religio-social organization the same lefty would have to describe as ultra-authoritarian and fascistic.
How could one, with a conservative social and political framework, support Palestinian liberation without supporting all the Left-Progressive program that comes along with it? On what basis and in accord with what ideological foundation could one support the Palestinian Liberation Movement while not connecting it to other modern *liberation* forms?
There is another aspect too. In some cities in the West there are massive demonstrations by mass Islamic or Muslim groupings whose activism against Israeli occupation also seems to combine pro-Islamic activism against Occidental structures.
There is an interesting talk on the UnHerd channel between James Lindsay & Aaron Bastani on this topic.
Before democracy comes unity of the people to fight against the established power.phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 4:06 pmBefore democracy comes self-determination.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:53 pm One thing that we have not touched on here is the link between Left-oriented activism for *Palestinian rights* which connects to the entire, let's say, Left and Progressive agenda, and the problems this poses. It is a curious problem: when one begins to conceive of becoming liberated, or liberating oneself, from oppression and in this case a *brutal occupation* (to use the common term) one requires an ideological framework. On what basis do I have a right to demand, or claim and attain, my liberation?
We in the Occident will always refer, generally, to our liberal traditions. Therefore, we say that what must happening in Palestine-Israel is that it must become a democracy. Similar to what was proposed for South Africa.
As far as I am aware all *liberation movements* of the modern times are grounded in Left-Progressive politics. So the Occidental Left-Progressive gets behind and *supports* the Palestinian movement (and other liberation movements) but the people being liberated are not inclined to Occidental liberalism, and in facxt may well be inclined to religio-social organization the same lefty would have to describe as ultra-authoritarian and fascistic.
How could one, with a conservative social and political framework, support Palestinian liberation without supporting all the Left-Progressive program that comes along with it? On what basis and in accord with what ideological foundation could one support the Palestinian Liberation Movement while not connecting it to other modern *liberation* forms?
There is another aspect too. In some cities in the West there are massive demonstrations by mass Islamic or Muslim groupings whose activism against Israeli occupation also seems to combine pro-Islamic activism against Occidental structures.
There is an interesting talk on the UnHerd channel between James Lindsay & Aaron Bastani on this topic.
That's not a concept strictly restricted to the "Progressive Left". Or it didn't used to be.
Easier said than done, obviously. Hamas could give back the hostages anytime...but they will not. Hamas could surrender the murderers, too...and they will not. Hamas could stop colluding with foreign powers to destroy Israel, or robbing its people, or using human shields, or building terrorist tunnels. And how do you get Hamas to stop firing rockets, and to stop murdering and raping Jews, and to let Israel exist?
I said no such thing. You're on your own.
That is the duty of a civil nation, Israel in other words, to be very welcoming to cease fire and peace. Instead, they frequently claim that the war will be continued until Hams is gone.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:39 pmNobody's "supporting" the war. What I'm asking is, "What's your plan for letting it end?" And so far, everybody just seems to think it's fine if the Jews stop fighting and let Hamas continue.phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:24 pmThere are some texts in Islam and Judaism that seem to support it.I love the way religious types seem to be more likely to support genocide.
I don't really get how Christians can take the positions that they do. As I have said several times, the continued support for the attack on Gaza appears to be contrary to Christian teachings.
What's your option?