Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:31 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:13 pm All I know about God is that the concept is a human creation. I know human and what they are capable of, they are selfish takers, so why would I want to get to know something that a human has created. I wouldn't.

Then the answer is, "No, I'm not interested in knowing God. I'm only interested in assuming He's a human fiction."

Yes, the whole God concept is an object of knowing, it's an assumption that there is a God that the human mind has created. God therefore does apparently exist as a conceptual known thing, which is knowledge only. The human then takes for granted that they are the author of their own conceptually known knowledge.

So why would I want to get to know a concept such as God that is sourced from human knowledge?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:36 pm Why the relationship with God should be so important that people who don't like it deserve to be in Hell?

Let's drop the word "deserve" for the moment, because we're not presently addressing the question of sin, but of relationship. We can come back to it later.

Free will is so important that people should be allowed to choose their destinies. Don't you agree? However, if they can't choose badly, then they can't choose the good either. They have no choices, then.

And without free choice, there is only robotics, not relationship.

Why people cannot for example be in Heaven and have no relationship with God?

Well, we do all thing that relationship is awfully important, don't we? We spend our whole lives seeking to be connected to others...to a group, or a culture, or a spouse, or all of the above...but above all, through this longing we subconsciously also long for relationship with the One who made us, because only He can make sense of our being, and only in relationship to Him do we find the purpose for which we were created and the role that allows us to be all that we were created to be. To be companions of God is both our reason for existing and our highest fulfillment personally. It's the happiness that we and God share.

Now, can you force such a relationship to happen? Or does it have to be freely chosen? If it were not, then that would be a forced "relationship," mere robotics again. Meanwhile, can we suppose that people who don't want God should be forced to be with God anyway? How's that an honouring of their personhood, of their volition, of their choice, or of their free will? It would be the destruction of all of the above. And where, then, is this "relationship"?

Moreover, should God be forced to spend eternity with people who hate Him, or despise Him, or have no use for Him? Why would we think we ought to consign God...or ourselves...to that? Is that anyone's idea of Heaven?

So yes, God could force everyone to do the right thing. But it is not possible for Him to do that and to give men freedom. Those two objectives are directly contradictory to each other...the doing of one undoes the other. Force is not choice. And if men choose to care nothing for God, should they not be allowed to have what they choose?

If they are not, then in what sense did they "choose" at all?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:31 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:13 pm All I know about God is that the concept is a human creation. I know human and what they are capable of, they are selfish takers, so why would I want to get to know something that a human has created. I wouldn't.

Then the answer is, "No, I'm not interested in knowing God. I'm only interested in assuming He's a human fiction."

Yes...

Okay. I'm not here to force-feed anyone. If you're not interested, you can opt for that. That's part of your free will.

But you should realize that to claim God is a human construct is merely gratuitous. You don't know that it's true; it is simply a convenient way of dismissing the whole idea. That is, indeed, less troubling for the moment, I'm sure.

That's a choice. And you're allowed to make choices, of course.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:55 pm
But you should realize that to claim God is a human construct is merely gratuitous.

It's a human construct, all concepts are of human origin, it's called knowledge known, expressed as and through a language that is unique to humans, language is basically sound heard as words. As far as I know there is no knowledge outside of this unique language arena. If you want to believe there is, then that is also a gratuitous belief, it is part of your own free will to believe whatever you want to believe.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:55 pm You don't know that it's true; it is simply a convenient way of dismissing the whole idea. That is, indeed, less troubling for the moment, I'm sure.

That's a choice. And you're allowed to make choices, of course.

Same could be said about your idea of God, you don't know that it's true. You are dismissing my idea that there is no God, it is convenient and less troubling for you to do so.

.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:05 pm ...all concepts are of human origin...

You may think so. Thinking it doesn't make that true, of course.

Same could be said about your idea of God, you don't know that it's true.

I understand why you would choose to suppose that. But you don't know that's true either. I would maintain I do know. But I could be lying, of course, or self-deceived. People are capable of that, of course.

But I don't think you're going to know any more about God unless you want to. After all, the Bible says, "...without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)

If somebody doesn't want to look for God, and doesn't want to find Him, and doesn't want to think there's anything to be found, then the Bible promises that she will find what she is looking for...nothing. So I can't beat that strategy.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:29 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:05 pm ...all concepts are of human origin...

You may think so. Thinking it doesn't make that true, of course.

You may disagree with that line of thinking, but what other thinking is there? I've never seen a thinking tree, or a thinking dinner plate have you?

Same could be said about your idea of God, you don't know that it's true.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:29 pmI understand why you would choose to suppose that. But you don't know that's true either. I would maintain I do know. But I could be lying, of course, or self-deceived. People are capable of that, of course.

Well at least I can agree with that line of reasoning and thinking.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:29 pmBut I don't think you're going to know any more about God unless you want to. After all, the Bible says, "...without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)

If somebody doesn't want to look for God, and doesn't want to find Him, and doesn't want to think there's anything to be found, then the Bible promises that she will find what she is looking for...nothing. So I can't beat that strategy.

I cannot look for what I know does not exist. All I know is that life as a sentient creature is pain and suffering, there is no reward except the end of these obnoxious sensations.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:29 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:05 pm ...all concepts are of human origin...

You may think so. Thinking it doesn't make that true, of course.

...what other thinking is there? ...

Well, that God exists and the objective world exists and has its integrity by way of Him, and then that our concepts are merely human attempts to articulate what is really there, objectively, as given by God.

I cannot look for what I know does not exist.

But you don't know God doesn't exist. What you know is that you don't know Him -- fair enough, but we might even say, you don't know him yet. That's all.

All I know is that life as a sentient creature is pain and suffering, there is no reward except the end of these obnoxious sensations.

What assures you there is no "reward"?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:52 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:36 pm Why the relationship with God should be so important that people who don't like it deserve to be in Hell?

Let's drop the word "deserve" for the moment, because we're not presently addressing the question of sin, but of relationship. We can come back to it later.

Free will is so important that people should be allowed to choose their destinies. Don't you agree? However, if they can't choose badly, then they can't choose the good either. They have no choices, then.

And without free choice, there is only robotics, not relationship.

I rather try to be rational and try to like God when I see the consequence of it. Why should I choose otherwise, eternal Hell? Which kind of relationship is this? You are kinda forced to do it!

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:52 pm

Why people cannot for example be in Heaven and have no relationship with God?

Well, we do all thing that relationship is awfully important, don't we? We spend our whole lives seeking to be connected to others...to a group, or a culture, or a spouse, or all of the above...but above all, through this longing we subconsciously also long for relationship with the One who made us, because only He can make sense of our being, and only in relationship to Him do we find the purpose for which we were created and the role that allows us to be all that we were created to be. To be companions of God is both our reason for existing and our highest fulfillment personally. It's the happiness that we and God share.

Now, can you force such a relationship to happen? Or does it have to be freely chosen? If it were not, then that would be a forced "relationship," mere robotics again. Meanwhile, can we suppose that people who don't want God should be forced to be with God anyway? How's that an honouring of their personhood, of their volition, of their choice, or of their free will? It would be the destruction of all of the above. And where, then, is this "relationship"?

Moreover, should God be forced to spend eternity with people who hate Him, or despise Him, or have no use for Him? Why would we think we ought to consign God...or ourselves...to that? Is that anyone's idea of Heaven?

So yes, God could force everyone to do the right thing. But it is not possible for Him to do that and to give men freedom. Those two objectives are directly contradictory to each other...the doing of one undoes the other. Force is not choice. And if men choose to care nothing for God, should they not be allowed to have what they choose?

If they are not, then in what sense did they "choose" at all?

Or make another Heaven that people are happy instead of being forced to be with God, love God, forced in your decision...

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:16 pm I rather try to be rational and try to like God when I see the consequence of it.

I'm not sure what this means: I'm not even sure what the word "it" refers to.

Why should I choose otherwise, eternal Hell? Which kind of relationship is this? You are kinda forced to do it!

You should choose what you want to choose. You'll surely get it. And not to force you to choose, that's exactly the point. You can even choose very badly, if you would like to...and God will respect your choice.

Or make another Heaven that people are happy instead of being forced to be with God, love God, forced in your decision...

But as the Bible speaks of Him, God is the wellspring of all life, goodness, health, happiness, relationship, joy, delight, decency, light, and so forth. To be without Him is to be without the One that makes any of that possible. So for any of it to exist, one would have to have God.

That's what it means to be "lost" in eternity. It simply means to be without God, and without everything that relationship with Him provides. And you can choose that. Nobody's forcing you not to.

But I wouldn't. And it's not necessary that you do. You could use your choosing to do yourself some good.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:35 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:16 pm I rather try to be rational and try to like God when I see the consequence of it.

I'm not sure what this means: I'm not even sure what the word "it" refers to.

Oh sorry, I should have said: "I rather try to be rational and try to like God when I see the consequence of doing otherwise (not like God).

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:35 pm

Why should I choose otherwise, eternal Hell? Which kind of relationship is this? You are kinda forced to do it!

You should choose what you want to choose. You'll surely get it. And not to force you to choose, that's exactly the point. You can even choose very badly, if you would like to...and God will respect your choice.

I am forced to choose God! Otherwise, I end up in Hell.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:35 pm

Or make another Heaven that people are happy instead of being forced to be with God, love God, forced in your decision...

But as the Bible speaks of Him, God is the wellspring of all life, goodness, health, happiness, relationship, joy, delight, decency, light, and so forth. To be without Him is to be without the One that makes any of that possible. So for any of it to exist, one would have to have God.

That's what it means to be "lost" in eternity. It simply means to be without God, and without everything that relationship with Him provides. And you can choose that. Nobody's forcing you not to.

But I wouldn't. And it's not necessary that you do. You could use your choosing to do yourself some good.

I am forced since otherwise, I go to Hell.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:08 pm Oh sorry, I should have said: "I rather try to be rational and try to like God when I see the consequence of doing otherwise (not like God).

I'm still having trouble decoding that. Maybe it's my fault.

I am forced to choose God! Otherwise, I end up in Hell.

Do you feel forced? It seems to me you're having no trouble at all believing what you believe.

When one makes a choice, one has to accept the consequences of that choice.

If you're raising a teenage child, you might tell him, "I don't think you should buy a motorcycle, because you're reckless and traffic around here is bad; but you're a just about an adult now, and I can't stop you doing what you do: so it's your choice."

That means he might buy the motorcycle, even if you think that's a wretched, dangerous choice for him. And who is it who is going to have the accident and end up in hospital if he buys a motorcycle? He will.

But you told him. And he didn't have to do it. Yet he did. And now, he has the consequences. That's what it means to give him the choice.

P.S. -- Personally, I love motorcycles, and I don't think they're dangerous...but many parents do, obviously. So I'm just using them as examples.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:26 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:08 pm Oh sorry, I should have said: "I rather try to be rational and try to like God when I see the consequence of doing otherwise (not like God).

I'm still having trouble decoding that. Maybe it's my fault.

Doing otherwise refers to not liking God.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:26 pm

I am forced to choose God! Otherwise, I end up in Hell.

Do you feel forced? It seems to me you're having no trouble at all believing what you believe.

When one makes a choice, one has to accept the consequences of that choice.

If you're raising a teenage child, you might tell him, "I don't think you should buy a motorcycle, because you're reckless and traffic around here is bad; but you're a just about an adult now, and I can't stop you doing what you do: so it's your choice."

That means he might buy the motorcycle, even if you think that's a wretched, dangerous choice for him. And who is it who is going to have the accident and end up in hospital if he buys a motorcycle? He will.

But you told him. And he didn't have to do it. Yet he did. And now, he has the consequences. That's what it means to give him the choice.

P.S. -- Personally, I love motorcycles, and I don't think they're dangerous...but many parents do, obviously. So I'm just using them as examples.

Yes, I feel forced. Why I should have such hard life? Why should I love someone who put me in this mess?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:32 pm Yes, I feel forced. Why I should have such hard life? Why should I love someone who put me in this mess?

I mean, do you feel "forced" to believe in God? It seems to me you're not "forced" in regard to that.

But you raise a different issue, and I should honour that. Yes, life is hard. But we might ask ourselves, "WHY is it hard?" I mean, what does the fact that life is hard indicate about man's position relative to God...assuming that God is all I have said he is, the Author of light, life, health, goodness, joy and so on? What does it indicate to us, to see that we do not have health, happiness, light, joy and goodness?

The answer is simple, and is ostensible from the facts you mention. The obvious fact is that we are not in right relationship to the Source. We are disconnected. We are out-of-sorts. We are fallen. And yes, there is no choice about that, because anybody who is out of right relationship with the Source experiences chaos...pain, darkness, sickness, decline, sadness, tragedy, and so on.

We discover from this "mess" that this world presently exists in a state of distance and disconnection from the Creator. And we have a choice: to become connected, or to disconnect entirely -- to refuse any such relationship.

But we have the choice.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:53 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:32 pm Yes, I feel forced. Why I should have such hard life? Why should I love someone who put me in this mess?

I mean, do you feel "forced" to believe in God? It seems to me you're not "forced" in regard to that.

I don't believe in God. But even if such a thing exist why should I love Him?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:53 pm But you raise a different issue, and I should honour that. Yes, life is hard. But we might ask ourselves, "WHY is it hard?" I mean, what does the fact that life is hard indicate about man's position relative to God...assuming that God is all I have said he is, the Author of light, life, health, goodness, joy and so on? What does it indicate to us, to see that we do not have health, happiness, light, joy and goodness?

I prefer to be in Paradise and have a big library full of books that tell the truth rather than being in such a rabit hole?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:53 pm The answer is simple, and is ostensible from the facts you mention. The obvious fact is that we are not in right relationship to the Source. We are disconnected. We are out-of-sorts. We are fallen. And yes, there is no choice about that, because anybody who is out of right relationship with the Source experiences chaos...pain, darkness, sickness, decline, sadness, tragedy, and so on.

Why I should be fallen? I have never chosen like Adam be in fallen world?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:53 pm We discover from this "mess" that this world presently exists in a state of distance and disconnection from the Creator. And we have a choice: to become connected, or to disconnect entirely -- to refuse any such relationship.

But we have the choice.

Which choice? I have never been given a right choice. I don't want to love a God who put me in fallen world. But I have otherwise I go to Hell. So tell me what choice do I have?

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:03 pm I don't believe in God.

But even if such a thing exist why should I love Him?

For who He is. He's the Source of your life, the meaning of your existence, and the sum of all good things there are. There is literally nothing else worthy.

I prefer to be in Paradise and have a big library full of books that tell the truth rather than being in such a rabit hole?

I'm not sure what "rabbit hole" you mean.

Why I should be fallen? I have never chosen like Adam be in fallen world?

Well, that's the thing about sin: it doesn't stop politely at the borders of other people's lives...it affects others. And we are initially victims of that, it's true; but we also become participants in it, by sinning ourselves. In the end, it's a "mess" we're all caught up in.

Which choice?

The choice to connect with God, or to refuse to do so. Because God Himself has made the way for you to get out of this "mess," as you term it. But it's a way you must choose. It cannot be forced on you.