Philosophy Now Forum

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:17 pm Here’s the test: you are presented with a situation by nerdy social scientists: Alexiev, Gary, Kropotkin, and Flash are in a holding cell behind a mirrored wall and cannot see you. You’ve been given a switch that sends an electric jolt when they engage in lying or just spouting the typical nonsense. There is a dial — 1 to 10 — next to the switch, and the test is to see: Do you send mild jolts at say level 2 or do you crank the bitch up to nine?

Ah but here is where the essence of the test lies please pay attention: the switch is connected to your bank account! Low-level shocks administered cost you 25 cents or 50 cents. But after level 5 the cost increases to $10 and $20 and $50.

How long before you go broke?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:13 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:08 pm

I think Trump is being a reckless and vain man. He's creating an atmosphere of terror...

"Terror" of "one day"? Gary, Gary, Gary...

He is not some kind of Messiah.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:49 pm
Woke belief is that "reality is constructed." That's one of their central convictions, always present in their literature. That is, that reality is a consensual delusion created by the enthusiasms of human beings, not an external reality that can "assert itself." What we call "reality" is merely the "reified" (their word) accretions of human culture, not the objective facts...but that we mistake these "constructions" for inevitablities, because they are "systemic" and have become "internalized" as "oppression." (again, using their preferred terms) Thus, their "liberatory praxis" is to extract us from our belief that reality is reality, and commit us to the delusion they are preferring -- for only when all of "society affirms" their delusion will it become the "reality" in which we live.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:21 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:17 pm Here’s the test: you are presented with a situation by nerdy social scientists: Alexiev, Gary, Kropotkin, and Flash are in a holding cell behind a mirrored wall and cannot see you. You’ve been given a switch that sends an electric jolt when they engage in lying or just spouting the typical nonsense. There is a dial — 1 to 10 — next to the switch, and the test is to see: Do you send mild jolts at say level 2 or do you crank the bitch up to nine?

Ah but here is where the essence of the test lies please pay attention: the switch is connected to your bank account! Low-level shocks administered cost you 25 cents or 50 cents. But after level 5 the cost increases to $10 and $20 and $50.

How long before you go broke?

Fuck you, asshole.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:21 pm Fuck you, asshole.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:21 pm Fuck you, asshole.

Bzzzzzzt! Bzzzzzzzt!

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:36 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:49 pm
Woke belief is that "reality is constructed." That's one of their central convictions, always present in their literature. That is, that reality is a consensual delusion created by the enthusiasms of human beings, not an external reality that can "assert itself." What we call "reality" is merely the "reified" (their word) accretions of human culture, not the objective facts...but that we mistake these "constructions" for inevitablities, because they are "systemic" and have become "internalized" as "oppression." (again, using their preferred terms) Thus, their "liberatory praxis" is to extract us from our belief that reality is reality, and commit us to the delusion they are preferring -- for only when all of "society affirms" their delusion will it become the "reality" in which we live.

But the only reason that is causing a problem is because we live in an age where we are allowed to openly identify as whatever we like.

Throughout most of history the consequences of failing to conform to societal convention were too grave to risk. People weren't free to construct their own reality;

Constructing their reality is just what humans do.

He is not some kind of Messiah.

Wow. To my knowledge, that's not a claim he's ever made. Can you give me a reference for that, Gary?

Trump’s Plan for Every Foreign-Policy Problem Is Himself

Trump sees the answer to the world’s needs in the mirror every day.

With public concerns over the proper U.S. posture toward Israel’s conduct of its war in Gaza rising daily, there’s naturally a lot of curiosity about what Joe Biden’s Republican opponent thinks the country should do about the subject. Even taking into account the strategic value of silence and incoherence on a controversy that has made life difficult for Biden, Donald Trump’s commentary on the Middle East lately has been unusually opaque — unless you recognize the pivotal role that his signature narcissism plays in how he thinks about global affairs.

An extensive new interview the 45th president granted to conservative pundit Hugh Hewitt is illustrative. Asked if he was being “critical of Israel” in comments he made to a conservative Israeli publication earlier this week, Trump immediately started talking about the baleful effect his very absence from the White House had exercised in the Middle East:

Look, Israel should have never happened. If I were president, it would not have happened. Iran was broke. They had no money. They had no nothing. And we would have worked, a deal with Iran would have been made already. In the meantime, they’re going to have a nuclear weapon within probably 45 or 60 days. And then, it’s going to be a little tougher to talk to them. But October 7 would have never happened.

This should have sounded familiar to Hewitt, since it’s precisely what Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner told him about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine back in 2022: It was a “totally avoidable” conflict that only occurred because of the change of administrations (Kushner also boasted vaguely that “we had [the Chinese] on their back foot the whole time”). Similarly, Trump himself has suggested without details that he would “settle” the war in Ukraine “in one day” if he returns to office.

The more we hear from him on both his past and purported future successes in keeping the world at peace, the clearer it becomes that Trump believes his presence in the White House calms global waters regardless of any specific policies he advances. He’s “strong,” Biden’s “weak,” and all of America’s adversaries know that. When Trump said in his 2016 presidential nomination acceptance speech, “I alone can fix it,” he was referring to the U.S. political system. But now that he can boast of his own presidency, which in his mind was an oasis of global stability between horrific bouts of national weakness and “forever wars,” his tendency to project himself as an all-purpose panacea increasingly extends to the whole world.

This is especially notable with respect to the current situation in the Middle East because Trump refuses to recognize there are systemic problems with respect to Israel’s relationship with its neighbors that his administration did nothing serious to address. In the Hewitt interview, he repeatedly talked about the need to “get back to normalcy and peace,” which is the context for his impatience that Israel “get it [the war] over with, and get it over with fast” and his characterization of the global protests over the damage being done to Gazans by the war as a “PR war” that Israel is losing by releasing photographs of bombs blowing up buildings.

It’s understandable politically that Team Trump very badly wants to promote amnesia about the condition of the world as well as the country when he left office. In an election that Biden is battling to make comparative as opposed to a simple referendum on his own job performance, the 45th president is deeply invested in the gravely false idea that he gave America the “greatest economy ever.” To the extent that foreign policy may be beginning to affect the 2024 elections, it’s natural that the former president is suggesting that he left the “greatest world ever,” which has now gone straight to hell. Only he can fix it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:49 pm

In other words, Henry, it's YOU who's holding them back from "the worker's paradise," or "the just society," or the next phase of "social evolution" and "progress" as they conceive them.

Biden's not senile.

Democrats never lie.

Men can be women.

Transing is affirming of identity.

America is inherently racist.

Capitalism destroys, but Communism offers ultimate freedom.

Babies are not human beings.

Euthanasia is fun.

The press and the mass media never lie.

The wars are necessary.

Money can just be printed in unlimited supply.

The economy is not faltering

oil is not expensive

and groceries remain cheap.

COVID measures were necessary in the public interest.

The universities are fine.

Taxes are good.

Borders should be open.

Radical Islamists are peaceful.

The government establishment works for our good.

The democratic processes have never been subverted.

Drugs should be legalized.

The homeless should be on the streets.

The world is being destroyed by climate change

but only in the West, and never by the East and South.

The Chinese government is our friend.

Technology will only really take us in the right direction, so whatever is invented will turn out to be good.

And you, Henry, are the present problem

you, and your "firm grip on reality," which must be broken.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:35 pm

He is not some kind of Messiah.

Wow. To my knowledge, that's not a claim he's ever made. Can you give me a reference for that, Gary?

Trump’s Plan for Every Foreign-Policy Problem Is Himself

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:14 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:36 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:49 pm
Woke belief is that "reality is constructed." That's one of their central convictions, always present in their literature. That is, that reality is a consensual delusion created by the enthusiasms of human beings, not an external reality that can "assert itself." What we call "reality" is merely the "reified" (their word) accretions of human culture, not the objective facts...but that we mistake these "constructions" for inevitablities, because they are "systemic" and have become "internalized" as "oppression." (again, using their preferred terms) Thus, their "liberatory praxis" is to extract us from our belief that reality is reality, and commit us to the delusion they are preferring -- for only when all of "society affirms" their delusion will it become the "reality" in which we live.

But the only reason that is causing a problem is because we live in an age where we are allowed to openly identify as whatever we like.

That may not be "the only reason," but it's certainly one of them. In fact, "identity" is one of the things that the Left insists are "constructed," not given by reality.

That's why Bruce Jenner can be a male decathlete one day, and "be a woman" the next. His "identity" is whatever he wants, plus whatever his society can be forced to agree is his new "identity." The theory seems to be, "Society constructed his biological identity; and society can, at will, genuinely reconstruct his identity as its opposite."

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:Throughout most of history the consequences of failing to conform to societal convention were too grave to risk. People weren't free to construct their own reality;

That's because reality has always had its own terms. Sometimes they were what people wanted, and sometimes what people didn't want; but their wants had no impact on what was true and real. They could distort their imaginations; they could not change reality.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:Constructing their reality is just what humans do.

Not at all. When you arrived here, at birth, reality was already there. The Wokies insist it was only there as a "social construct"; but it was not. It was there as reality.

Society has always "constructed" some of the terms on which it has tried to interpret reality. But it has never constructed reality itself.

Well, you're not Gary, and I don't see any relevant reference there.

Where was this word, "Messiah"?

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 7:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:14 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:36 pm
But the only reason that is causing a problem is because we live in an age where we are allowed to openly identify as whatever we like.

That may not be "the only reason," but it's certainly one of them. In fact, "identity" is one of the things that the Left insists are "constructed," not given by reality.

I'm not particular "left", but it seems to me that identity is almost entirely constructed.

That's why Bruce Jenner can be a male decathlete one day, and "be a woman" the next. His "identity" is whatever he wants, plus whatever his society can be forced to agree is his new "identity." The theory seems to be, "Society constructed his biological identity; and society can, at will, genuinely reconstruct his identity as its opposite."

That illustrates how bizarre the situation came become if it is allowed, but I think it supports my assertion that our reality is, to a great extent, constructed.

Harbal wrote:...we also construct what I suppose could be called (especially by Alexis Jacobi) metaphysical reality.

I still cannot help experiencing morality as something real,

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:Constructing their reality is just what humans do.

Not at all. When you arrived here, at birth, reality was already there. The Wokies insist it was only there as a "social construct"; but it was not. It was there as reality.

With you, as with many, it always seems to be a case of all or nothing,...

Boys cannot grow up to bear children, and girls cannot grow up get them pregnant, but much of our attitudes about gender are constructed.

I thoroughly agree that a biological male should not be allowed to take part in competitive female sport, and should not be granted the status of woman in various other areas, but I see no reason to raise any objection to whatever someone wants to identify as when there is no cost to us.