Philosophy Now Forum

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:24 pm I STILL have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime.

He committed no crimes. The crimes seem invented and very grasping.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:22 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:24 pm I STILL have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime.

He committed no crimes. The crimes seem invented and very grasping.

And even if he did, he’s going to walk.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:05 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:55 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:51 pm
Heh. You-defeating, maybe.

You want to debate some point or other?

Yes. Show me what, from the Biden administration, they've done that's good for America or the world. Let's talk about that.

I feel you have some different takes to me on what good and bad are, but whatever...

• He's done a pretty decent job mending various alliances, but that's mainly NATO and Putin made it suddenly vital again in a way that mere diplomacy never would have, nonetheless, decent work. Similarly his diplomatic outreach in Asia is going well with some free trade agreements and good work in Hanoi and Tokyo. For all the people who worry a lot about the rise of China, that's all good stuff.

• The Inflation Reduction Act is much too protection oriented for my tastes, but it creates jobs and promotes investment in growth sectors and all the people who stress about where manufacturing happens should like it (unless they are Germans, in which case they will have to lump it).

• He managed to get a Bipartisan Infrastructure Deal through a brutal recidivist Congress which is something of an achievement by itself. It contains funding to end the problem of America still having lead water pipes, which is something that really should have been dealt with in the 1970s not the 2020s. That alone (exclusive of the other trillion dollars for repairing dangerous infrastructure) should count as a good thing even to the most absurdly rabid partisan...

If he commits any felonies, I see no reason why a fairly ok economic performance should save his from going to jail though.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:22 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:24 pm I STILL have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime.

He committed no crimes. The crimes seem invented and very grasping.

"Invented" in what sense? It's not likely that they invented The Espionage Act of 1917 to get Trump.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:05 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:55 pm
You want to debate some point or other?

Yes. Show me what, from the Biden administration, they've done that's good for America or the world. Let's talk about that.

I feel you have some different takes to me on what good and bad are, but whatever...

• He's done a pretty decent job mending various alliances,

He's got America in a futile war he and his cronies caused.

• The Inflation Reduction Act

Perhaps the most misnamed bit of legislation in history.

• He managed to get a Bipartisan Infrastructure Deal

Let's give him that one. I won't split hairs.

If he commits any felonies, I see no reason why a fairly ok economic performance should save his from going to jail though.

You mean, "When it's found out he has..."because we both know he has, really.

But for once, we actually agree on what should be done about it.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:22 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:24 pm I STILL have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime.

He committed no crimes. The crimes seem invented and very grasping.

Read the indictments.
You are in denial.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:49 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:05 pm
Yes. Show me what, from the Biden administration, they've done that's good for America or the world. Let's talk about that.

I feel you have some different takes to me on what good and bad are, but whatever...

• He's done a pretty decent job mending various alliances,

He's got America in a futile war he and his cronies caused.

That's the conspiracy theorist take. But I disagree with it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:49 pm

• The Inflation Reduction Act

Perhaps the most misnamed bit of legislation in history.

On that we agree. But presidents don't have any influence over inflation anyway. It does however shore up business investment at a time when the Fed is hiking rates to combat inflation, so it fulfils a useful and inflation related counter cyclical job creation role. So unless you want to fight inflation by increasing unemployment it's not necessarioly a bad bill.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:49 pm

• He managed to get a Bipartisan Infrastructure Deal

Let's give him that one. I won't split hairs.

If he commits any felonies, I see no reason why a fairly ok economic performance should save his from going to jail though.

You mean, "When it's found out he has..."because we both know he has, really.

But for once, we actually agree on what should be done about it.

I couldn't care less whether Biden dies in prison, same goes for Bill Clinton.

The evidence you right wing types have against Biden seems to be mostly wishful thinking though. Kinda seems like any conman can sell you guys any story right now and Gym Jordan is going to wave it around like it's the new Gospel no matter how implausible. And the evidence for the vote steal thing was flat out batshit crazy rubbish about time travellers, Italian satellites, and reversed video of two innocent poll workers whose lives were turned upside down to maintain your conspiracy theories in Nov 2020. Even that laptop can't be trusted because there's no explanation for how all the file system logs got deleted, nor why the “Biden Burisma” folder has a creation timestamp that shows it came into existence after Giuliani took ownership of the device.

But whatever, get something real and you can throw his arse into prison.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:12 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:49 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:40 pm
I feel you have some different takes to me on what good and bad are, but whatever...

• He's done a pretty decent job mending various alliances,

He's got America in a futile war he and his cronies caused.

That's the conspiracy theorist take. But I disagree with it.

Because what? He's the one who declared the war. You can't blame Trump or me for that.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:49 pm

• The Inflation Reduction Act

Perhaps the most misnamed bit of legislation in history.

On that we agree.

If he commits any felonies, I see no reason why a fairly ok economic performance should save his from going to jail though.

You mean, "When it's found out he has..."because we both know he has, really.

But for once, we actually agree on what should be done about it.

I couldn't care less whether Biden dies in prison, same goes for Bill Clinton.

They've done enough to deserve it. And on both sides of the house, I sure want to see that Epstein list. I'll bet there's quite a list of characters on that one, and all of them should go to jail, regardless of their party.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:17 am

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:12 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:49 pm
He's got America in a futile war he and his cronies caused.

That's the conspiracy theorist take. But I disagree with it.

Because what? He's the one who declared the war. You can't blame Trump or me for that.

I don't know what war you mean then. I assumed you were doing the conspiracy theory that NATO caused the Ukraine war. I don't have any idea what war was declared by Biden.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:17 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:49 pm
Perhaps the most misnamed bit of legislation in history.

On that we agree.

You mean, "When it's found out he has..."because we both know he has, really.

But for once, we actually agree on what should be done about it.

I couldn't care less whether Biden dies in prison, same goes for Bill Clinton.

They've done enough to deserve it. And on both sides of the house, I sure want to see that Epstein list. I'll bet there's quite a list of characters on that one, and all of them should go to jail, regardless of their party.

Suits me. Hopefully the lady to the far right of this picture can be pursuaded to turn state's evidence too.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:58 pm Read the indictments.
You are in denial.

I’ve listened to/read 3 legal scholars who have high credibility in my view. Their arguments make sense to me.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 10:48 pm That's a bit of a bromide, can you illustrate with any specifics?

Probably. But it would not influence you. It is an “intuitive” understanding on my part. Simply put, over the last 30-40 years American culture has been radicalized from more culturally-conservative bases. My parent’s generation witnessed and participated in that radicalization. (But I’d not say it was all bad).

Therefore, I assume a general process that can be noted over the last 150 years. A general cultural conservatism has been “engineered” and the evidence of this is all around us.

Any validity in that view, according to you?

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:23 am I assumed you were doing the conspiracy theory that NATO caused the Ukraine war.

Well, NATO is the U.S. Let's not kid ourselves. The rest are about as threatening as a mean little kid with a slingshot, including the UK. Only one power is in the same league as Russia.

And Nigel Farage was warning NATO a decade ago to stop aggitating Putin by messing about in Ukraine. They didn't listen, and Putin reacted, and now the world is paying for his dictatorship and the stupidity of the politicians who made the war happen...especially those with untalented sons mysteriously given plumb positions on energy boards in Ukraine, while simultaneously selling access to "the Big Guy".

That should helpfully narrow the focus.

Meanwhile, we should all ask who's actually footing the bill for that war, and which politicians are going to end it as soon as they're elected -- and Americans should seriously consider voting for them, whichever party they come from.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:23 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:17 am

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:12 am
That's the conspiracy theorist take. But I disagree with it.

Because what? He's the one who declared the war. You can't blame Trump or me for that.

I don't know what war you mean then. I assumed you were doing the conspiracy theory that NATO caused the Ukraine war. I don't have any idea what war was declared by Biden.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:17 am

On that we agree.

I couldn't care less whether Biden dies in prison, same goes for Bill Clinton.

They've done enough to deserve it. And on both sides of the house, I sure want to see that Epstein list. I'll bet there's quite a list of characters on that one, and all of them should go to jail, regardless of their party.

Suits me. Hopefully the lady to the far right of this picture can be pursuaded to turn state's evidence too.

Is that what he's being charged with, having his photo taken with Jeffery Epstein? 'Guilt by photo' association?

Jesus gods Melania is way too hot for that putz and I hate that she had to have him as a lover. That poor girl.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:58 am

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:23 am I assumed you were doing the conspiracy theory that NATO caused the Ukraine war.

Well, NATO is the U.S. Let's not kid ourselves. The rest are about as threatening as a mean little kid with a slingshot, including the UK. Only one power is in the same league as Russia.

And Nigel Farage was warning NATO a decade ago to stop aggitating Putin by messing about in Ukraine. They didn't listen, and Putin reacted, and now the world is paying for his dictatorship and the stupidity of the politicians who made the war happen...especially those with untalented sons mysteriously given plumb positions on energy boards in Ukraine, while simultaneously selling access to "the Big Guy".

That should helpfully narrow the focus.

Meanwhile, we should all ask who's actually footing the bill for that war, and which politicians are going to end it as soon as they're elected -- and Americans should seriously consider voting for them, whichever party they come from.

That's a tangle of multiple conspiracy theories and it really makes no sense. People who are prone to such fancy normally like oil as an explanation for invasions, so why not this time?

In August 2012, the Ukr government selected ExxonMobil and Royal Dutch Shell to lead development of the Skifska deep-water natural gas field offshore in the Black Sea, prior to that in 2009 China National Offshore Oil Corp was retained to build a pipeline linking the offshore fields recently discovered to the mainland. Ukraine has large enough oil and gas reserves that Rick Perry (remember him, Trump's Energy Secretary) called it potentially "the Texas of Europe." However, as you will note from this map, seizing the Crimean peninsular gave Putin control over that region, making exploitation of the fields impossible. Exxon and Shell jumped ship right away.


Putin runs a highly corrupt crony capitalist nation with one specific industry that pays for everything - namely oil. Of crucial importance to Russia's revenues is the existence of pipelines to Europe which allow cheap delivery of oil and gas to one ofthe most lucrative markets. The threat to Putin lay in the development of oil that he didn't own but which could be delivered through those same pipelines, reducing his market share.

The second invasion was an attempt to landlock Ukraine entirely by taking the coast all the way to Odessa to prevent exploitation of the remaining gas fields and also to menace (perhaps even to take) the shale fields of the Carpathian region in the west. Another objective obviosuly was to arrange a continuous water supply for Crimea itself which doesn't get anything like enough rainfall and thus cannot sustain agriculture without a canal linking to the Dnipro.

But the main thing is that Putin has to ensure there is money for his political clients. And for there to be money, he has to sell oil at a profit. And the reason to invade Ukr was to maintain profit margins.