The American Republic has Ended, What Next?

[Alexis Jacobi]

So all in all I'm wondering if your take on Liberalism isn't a bit skewed, because little old neoliberal me is probably a much better example of old school liberalism than that church warden could ever be.

Liberalism or Libertarianism?

I am not sure that it is. A Liberal ideal seemed to have included common-sense views about many things and seemed to me generally more conservative (socially).

How do you explain the social radicalism of today or the “undermining of foundation” as I might label it?

I do not read you as old-school liberal. But I admit to the possibility of seeing through “darkened glass”.

[Immanuel Can]

You aren't really presenting any particular argument right now, so I'm not in a position to commit any form of fallacy.

I've given you plenty. But you ignore them all, and go "Trump...you..." instead. That's ad hominem, on two counts.

[Immanuel Can]

A new term for our Leftist lexicon, by the way:

"Nullification."

It means, "the strategy of pre-tarring a person's character, often by as little as association or innuendo, such that everything they say -- rational or not -- is always dismissed by the trusting public without any chance of a fair hearing."

Examples: "Ayan Hirsi Ali is an Islamophobe; don't listen to what she says about what Islamists do to women."
"Yeonmi Park is a darling of the Right...so the fact that she was an abused escapee from the North Korean Communist dictatorship doesn't matter...don't listen to her about Communism."
Or "Brett Weinstein went on FOX, so even though he's a lifelong liberal and Democrat, he's a fake Democrat and can't be listened to anymore."
Or "Larry Elder and Candace Owen are Republicans, so they can't speak about black experience or on behalf of black interests."

And so on. Lots of nullification attempts go on here, too.

[FlashDangerpants]

So all in all I'm wondering if your take on Liberalism isn't a bit skewed, because little old neoliberal me is probably a much better example of old school liberalism than that church warden could ever be.

Liberalism or Libertarianism?

I am not sure that it is. A Liberal ideal seemed to have included common-sense views about many things and seemed to me generally more conservative (socially).

How do you explain the social radicalism of today or the “undermining of foundation” as I might label it?

I do not read you as old-school liberal. But I admit to the possibility of seeing through “darkened glass”.

We seem to have found a slight flaw with your legendary scholarship. I mean the Liberals (aka the Whigs) who, inspired by the biggest beast of Classical Liberalism, advanced the cause of free trade in opposition to the mercantilism common in that era (and which in modern times has been revived by Trump).

These are the liberals who fought against the Corn Laws - tarrifs in the 18th/19th century that protected British farmers against cheap American imported corn but did so at the expense of the poor who could not afford bread. These Liberals are also the ones who introduced the notion of a private sphere of action in which neither the state nor society at general could intervene so long as no harm was being done.

Some were socially conservative up to a point, particulalry Edmund Burke who can truly be said to have straddled both the Conservative and Liberal movements in his day. But the true Liberals were more in line with Mill who wrote in On Liberty about "experiments in living" which pretty much means you get to choose how you live your life (and pursue happiness etc) without anyone having any right to apply social pressure, let alone state intervention.

None of this shoulkd be taken to imply Henry Q style libertarianism.

[FlashDangerpants]

You aren't really presenting any particular argument right now, so I'm not in a position to commit any form of fallacy.

I've given you plenty. But you ignore them all, and go "Trump...you..." instead. That's ad hominem, on two counts.

That's self-defeating really.

You want to debate some point or other? I have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime, or that he shouldn't be prosecuted because you don't want him to be held accountable if he did commit a crime.

Wizzard made a sort of effort to argue both at once with some conspiracy theory about all the judges being Democrats including the ones on the Supreme Court that Trump appointed to it. You got some position less dumb than that?

[Immanuel Can]

You aren't really presenting any particular argument right now, so I'm not in a position to commit any form of fallacy.

I've given you plenty. But you ignore them all, and go "Trump...you..." instead. That's ad hominem, on two counts.

That's self-defeating really.

Heh. You-defeating, maybe.

[FlashDangerpants]

I've given you plenty. But you ignore them all, and go "Trump...you..." instead. That's ad hominem, on two counts.

That's self-defeating really.

Heh. You-defeating, maybe.

You want to debate some point or other? I have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime, or that he shouldn't be prosecuted because you don't want him to be held accountable if he did commit a crime.

Wizzard made a sort of effort to argue both at once with some conspiracy theory about all the judges being Democrats including the ones on the Supreme Court that Trump appointed to it. You got some position less dumb than that?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Some were socially conservative up to a point, particulalry Edmund Burke who can truly be said to have straddled both the Conservative and Liberal movements in his day. But the true Liberals were more in line with Mill who wrote in On Liberty about "experiments in living" which pretty much means you get to choose how you live your life (and pursue happiness etc) without anyone having any right to apply social pressure, let alone state intervention.

If the topic is IC’s political stance — I would say he is Liberal-Conservative (slightly right of center) — then my opinion doesn’t change. But political categories seem to be in some upheaval generally. And it is confusing.

If the topic is What is the cause of “the mess” we find ourselves in, then I am still inclined to place more emphasis on progressive- and radical-leftism. So his statement (with qualification) makes sense to me.

Some were socially conservative up to a point, particulalry Edmund Burke who can truly be said to have straddled both the Conservative and Liberal movements in his day. But the true Liberals were more in line with Mill who wrote in On Liberty about "experiments in living" which pretty much means you get to choose how you live your life (and pursue happiness etc) without anyone having any right to apply social pressure, let alone state intervention.

My take is that these Liberalisms functioned sanely (if that is the word) because culture generally was grounded in conservative principles.

There seems to be a point where Liberalism becomes Hyper-Liberalism because it has altered or destroyed those bases in defined values that allowed Liberal flourishing. Then it seems to move in perverse directions and to call forth reaction.

[Sculptor]

The mess in American politics today is 100% Democrat, 100% Leftist.

That is possibly the most stupid thng I've read in weeks.

Agreed.

When Trump is in jail and the Republicans chose someone else, deserting him like rats, what will VA, Wizzard, Veggie and Immanuel do?

There must be a precendent such as what happened in Germany in 1945.
I understand thousands of Germans lived out thier lives in complete denial and cogniive dissonance, whilst the following generation Were tutored in the aegis of De-Nazification.
Is there more pain to come, or has Trump breathed his last?

[Alexis Jacobi]

You want to debate some point or other? I have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime, or that he shouldn't be prosecuted because you don't want him to be held accountable if he did commit a crime.

A “reasonable person” will note the intense opposition to DT and various political and legal efforts to unseat him. From the very beginning. These, seen in their series, indicate convoluted machinations.

Personally, I think Trump must be seen as a total picture. A phenomenon. Both lunatic and somewhat genius. However, a pure partisan perspective does not seem very helpful.

Don't get confused. This is a fascinating photo that I appropriated and manipulated. If you believe that I do not think Trump cannot be critiqued, you are wrong there.

[Sculptor]

If the topic is IC’s political stance — I would say he is Liberal-Conservative (slightly right of center) — then my opinion doesn’t change. But political categories seem to be in some upheaval generally. And it is confusing.

If the topic is What is the cause of “the mess” we find ourselves in, then I am still inclined to place more emphasis on progressive- and radical-leftism. So his statement (with qualification) makes sense to me.

I'd love to hear you give the evidence in a step by step way, of how you think this might be the case.

Go ahead and justify an idea that giving women the right to bodily autonomy, or trans people the same rights as other people.
Becuase where I am sitting all I see is rght wingers using these people as scapegoats to avoid scrutiny of their looting the public purse and providing themselves with the destruction of working peoples rights,reductions in public health; public school; rights to health, and many other culumnies such as homeownership becoming out of reach, increases in poverty, inequality and less opportunity all under right wing governements.

So give it your best shot.
Tell us what you mean by "the mess we find ourself in". And how its lefties that has caused it?

[Sculptor]

You want to debate some point or other? I have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime, or that he shouldn't be prosecuted because you don't want him to be held accountable if he did commit a crime.

A “reasonable person” will note the intense opposition to DT and various political and legal efforts to unseat him. From the very beginning. These, seen in their series, indicate convoluted machinations.

Nothing of the kind happened except in the paranoid imagination of DT.

Personally, I think Trump must be seen as a total picture. A phenomenon. Both lunatic and somewhat genius. However, a pure partisan perspective does not seem very helpful.

You really need to read the indictments. IN DETAIL
and take a cold hard look what he did Jan6th.

[FlashDangerpants]

You want to debate some point or other? I have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime, or that he shouldn't be prosecuted because you don't want him to be held accountable if he did commit a crime.

A “reasonable person” will note the intense opposition to DT and various political and legal efforts to unseat him. From the very beginning. These, seen in their series, indicate convoluted machinations.

Personally, I think Trump must be seen as a total picture. A phenomenon. Both lunatic and somewhat genius. However, a pure partisan perspective does not seem very helpful.

I STILL have no idea as of right now if you guys are saying that Trump should not be prosecuted because he didn't commit any crime, or that he shouldn't be prosecuted because you don't want him to be held accountable if he did commit a crime.

[FlashDangerpants]

Some were socially conservative up to a point, particulalry Edmund Burke who can truly be said to have straddled both the Conservative and Liberal movements in his day. But the true Liberals were more in line with Mill who wrote in On Liberty about "experiments in living" which pretty much means you get to choose how you live your life (and pursue happiness etc) without anyone having any right to apply social pressure, let alone state intervention.

If the topic is IC’s political stance — I would say he is Liberal-Conservative (slightly right of center) — then my opinion doesn’t change. But political categories seem to be in some upheaval generally. And it is confusing.

Wow, he's quite the man of opposites, in your imagination at least. But if he was, as you described him... "quite classically Liberal" he would definitely criticise trump for the classically illiberal trade policies if nothing else. These include (off the top of my head) his multiple impsitions of mercantillist tariffs; his similarly mercantillist reasons for assaulting the WTO and NAFTA (trade liberals think the rules based system of international free trade is a huge net positive for humanity at large); all of the wall stuff. Not to mention all of the immigration stuff, especially that Islamic immigration "shut down" he promised. Such a classical Liberal would also criticise Biden for maintaining too many of those illiberal trade policies.
IC challenges people to come up with anything bad Trump has done. As you can see, an actual classical Liberal would have no difficulty finding genuine objections to Trump.

I leave it to others to consider whether a real conservative would find it difficult to criticise a man who has cheated on each of his three wives.

If the topic is What is the cause of “the mess” we find ourselves in, then I am still inclined to place more emphasis on progressive- and radical-leftism. So his statement (with qualification) makes sense to me.

Some were socially conservative up to a point, particulalry Edmund Burke who can truly be said to have straddled both the Conservative and Liberal movements in his day. But the true Liberals were more in line with Mill who wrote in On Liberty about "experiments in living" which pretty much means you get to choose how you live your life (and pursue happiness etc) without anyone having any right to apply social pressure, let alone state intervention.

My take is that these Liberalisms functioned sanely (if that is the word) because culture generally was grounded in conservative principles.

That's a bit of a bromide, can you illustrate with any specifics?

There seems to be a point where Liberalism becomes Hyper-Liberalism because it has altered or destroyed those bases in defined values that allowed Liberal flourishing. Then it seems to move in perverse directions and to call forth reaction.

If you start with some Hegelian assumptions I suppose you can assume that too. But if you attempt to clumsily naturalise "good" into "tradition" on a philosophy forum somebody should have enough knowledge to make that difficult for you.

[Immanuel Can]

That's self-defeating really.

Heh. You-defeating, maybe.

You want to debate some point or other?

Yes. Show me what, from the Biden administration, they've done that's good for America or the world. Let's talk about that.