Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

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Flannel Jesus
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

henry quirk wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:19 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 6:42 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:38 pm Did I say There would be no change?
Yes, those were very literally your words.
I'll be damned: you're right.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:35 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:18 pm
What it illustrates, for me, is that HE can't be the source of that difference in choice.
For me, it just means, all things bein' equal, Junior had no reason to choose differently.
If Willy was the same, perfectly the same, then Willy was not the source of the change.
There would be no change becuz Junior had no reason to choose differently, yes.
Yes. I was keeping very close track of the conversation. Clarity was my aim.

I didn't introduce the term "guranteed" in order to trick you, trap you, confuse you or anything like that. I brought up that word because it looked like that's what you meant. And you apparently agreed.

No bad faith from my direction in any of that, it's important to me that you see that.
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henry quirk
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by henry quirk »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:23 amNo bad faith from my direction in any of that, *it's important to me that you see that.
*I do.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

henry quirk wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:30 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:23 amNo bad faith from my direction in any of that, *it's important to me that you see that.
*I do.
Awesome. If nothing else I'm glad that much is cleared up.
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henry quirk
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by henry quirk »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:35 am
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:30 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:23 amNo bad faith from my direction in any of that, *it's important to me that you see that.
*I do.
Awesome. If nothing else I'm glad that much is cleared up.
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Wizard22
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Wizard22 »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 12:09 pmI don't believe necessarily that we live in a deterministic world,
and I don't believe necessarily that there is or isn't "free will" per se,
but I do strongly believe that any conception of free will which is incompatible with determinism is analytically nonsensical. I come to that conclusion through thought experiments about choice, zooming in on a moment of choice and looking at what I might be able to rationally say about that moment of choice.
These are really the only statements you've made about Determinism and Free-Will. You believe in neither. But then you state that they must be congruent.

Isn't it more the case that you don't understand?
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Wizard22 »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:03 amAs I stated earlier, the belief in free will is an egocentric delusion, one that is a source of great ignorance and chaos in the world.
I get the urge at this point in the thread, to go back, and list all the claims Determinists have made against Free-Will...

It would be interesting at least to quote the statements directly. It doesn't seem like any of the Determinists in this thread, want to "have a free-will". This is quite a different intention than expected. In other words, you'd expect that people would want to be free with their desires, at least in their own mind, their own imagination, and within their own privacy (if that were even possible). But alas, it is not.

Are people so severely demoralized that they have no inclination toward 'freedom' of any kind? Especially nothing related to their own, personal, motivated, Will?
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:48 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 12:09 pmI don't believe necessarily that we live in a deterministic world,
and I don't believe necessarily that there is or isn't "free will" per se,
but I do strongly believe that any conception of free will which is incompatible with determinism is analytically nonsensical. I come to that conclusion through thought experiments about choice, zooming in on a moment of choice and looking at what I might be able to rationally say about that moment of choice.
These are really the only statements you've made about Determinism and Free-Will. You believe in neither. But then you state that they must be congruent.

Isn't it more the case that you don't understand?
I said that in that first l layer of my position, I don't NECESSARILY believe in either. It's not disbelief. It's agnosticism towards two statements: determinism is a valid description of the world we live in, and compatibilist free will is a valid way of viewing human choice. The only thing in that first layer I explicitly deny is libertarian free will (which I'm using as synonymous with the class of free will beliefs that say they can't exist within determinism).

I'm sure you think I don't understand.
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Wizard22 »

The only way I can see Determinists reconciling free-will with determinism, making them "compatible", is by denying the reality of a Free-Will, necessarily along with all the "Choices" people believe they make. And a Hard Determinist has clearer answers and responses. People are deluded. People are NOT making choices. Such choices are contrasted against "other hypothetical outcomes" which don't exist. Since their is "only one preferable choice which is the choice made", means that Choice is essentially a self-delusion. And this self-delusion is fueled by false notions of self-control.

But here the Hard Determinists tend to stop their rampage. How is self-control a delusion exactly? Does everybody, equally, have no control over "themselves"? Doesn't this depend on what people are and why? What self, exactly? Is Self-Control a matter of self discipline? Are those that 'restrain' their desires, in more control than those who do not or cannot? How would we know if a person 'cannot' control themselves, their impulses? Consider the Obesity epidemic in USA and England. Can people choose NOT to stuff their faces??? Can they choose their health?!


I'm not holding my breath for Determinists at this point. So the least you can do is—try to keep up to my pace okay?
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:58 am The only way I can see Determinists reconciling free-will with determinism, making them "compatible", is by denying the reality of a Free-Will, necessarily along with all the "Choices" people believe they make. And a Hard Determinist has clearer answers and responses. People are deluded. People are NOT making choices. Such choices are contrasted against "other hypothetical outcomes" which don't exist. Since their is "only one preferable choice which is the choice made", means that Choice is essentially a self-delusion. And this self-delusion is fueled by false notions of self-control.

But here the Hard Determinists tend to stop their rampage. How is self-control a delusion exactly? Does everybody, equally, have no control over "themselves"? Doesn't this depend on what people are and why? What self, exactly? Is Self-Control a matter of self discipline? Are those that 'restrain' their desires, in more control than those who do not or cannot? How would we know if a person 'cannot' control themselves, their impulses? Consider the Obesity epidemic in USA and England. Can people choose NOT to stuff their faces??? Can they choose their health?!


I'm not holding my breath for Determinists at this point. So the least you can do is—try to keep up to my pace okay?
This is another illustrative example of what many people have told you in this thread: you don't understand what determinists think.
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Wizard22 »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 11:54 amI said that in that first l layer of my position, I don't NECESSARILY believe in either. It's not disbelief. It's agnosticism towards two statements: determinism is a valid description of the world we live in, and compatibilist free will is a valid way of viewing human choice. The only thing in that first layer I explicitly deny is libertarian free will (which I'm using as synonymous with the class of free will beliefs that say they can't exist within determinism).

I'm sure you think I don't understand.
I don't think you can consider LFW until your core convictions in life are shaken and overturned.

You have to become willing to be wrong about very major belief-systems in life.

Imagine a devout Christian who lives his or her life around God. Consider an Amish person in Pennsylvania. What if he's wrong? What if he's right? Can you imagine living your entire life under a lie or delusion? That you got it wrong, fundamentally? That you were deceived? Or, maybe he's got The Truth and others do not?


These are the qualifications of beliefs I'm talking about. How you believe you-yourself are Free or not, fundamentally, shapes everything about your life and directly affects those around you. Your belief, changes the world. Don't take my word for it. Try to change your belief, yourself. Can you? Can you dance between Determinism and Free-Will, freely? Are your thoughts really unconstrained? No, people have severe biases.

So no "progress" will be had until core convictions are overturned, or if not overturned, then at least exposed and examined.

Few can do this.
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

I'm honoured then to speak with someone so uniquely wise. Honoured and exhausted.
Wizard22
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Wizard22 »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 12:00 pmyou don't understand what determinists think.
If I did understand, that doesn't mean that you'd understand. We would need a mutual understanding.
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Wizard22 »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 12:04 pm I'm honoured then to speak with someone so uniquely wise. Honoured and exhausted.
What do you believe Free-Will 'is'?
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henry quirk
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by henry quirk »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 12:07 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 12:04 pm I'm honoured then to speak with someone so uniquely wise. Honoured and exhausted.
*What do you believe Free-Will 'is'?
*An important question.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:05 pm
This highlights a problem with free will discussions: no one is on the same page with definitions.

Look here...

https://www.informationphilosopher.com/ ... onomy.html

Determinism is the position that every event is caused, the inevitable and necessary consequence of antecedent events, in a chain of events with just one possible future.

"Hard" and "soft" determinism are terms invented by William James, who lamented the fact that some determinists were co-opting the term freedom for themselves. He called them "soft" determinists, because, abhoring harsh words like fatality, necessity, and even predetermination, they say determinism’s "real name is freedom; for freedom is only necessity understood, and bondage to the highest is identical with true freedom."

"Hard" determinists deny the existence of free will. "Soft" determinists co-opt the term.

Compatibilism is the most common name used today for James' category of soft determinism. For compatibilists, free will is compatible with determinism.

Semicompatibilists are agnostic about free will and determinism, but claim that moral responsibility is compatible with determinism. Narrow incompatibilism is a similar concept.

Hard incompatibilists think both free will and moral responsibility are not compatible with determinism (they mean pre-determinism).

Illusionists are hard incompatibilists, who say that free will is an illusion. They usually deny moral responsibility, but some say we can preserve responsibility by maintaining the illusion.

Impossibilists are also hard incompatibilists. They say moral responsibility is impossible.

Incompatibilism is the idea that free will and determinism are incompatible. Incompatibilists include both hard determinists and libertarians. Incompatibilists include both hard determinists and libertarians (both yellow in the taxonomy). This confuses the debate by analytic language philosophers - who are normally committed to clear and unambiguous concepts - and adds difficulties for students of philosophy.

Soft incompatibilists says that free will is incompatible with pre-determinism, and that pre-determinism is not true. Using "soft" is preferable to the loose usage of the term "incompatibilist" to describe a libertarian, since "incompatibilist" is ambiguous and also used for determinists, the "hard" incompatibilists.

Source and Leeway Incompatibilism locate indeterminism in the Actual Sequence or Alternative Sequences. The first in each pair breaks the causal chain in the actual sequence, the last pair provide alternative possibilities in alternative sequences.

Indeterminism is the position that there are random (chance) events in a world of possible futures. The irreducible indeterminism is quantum indeterminacy.

Libertarians believe that indeterminism makes free will possible. Note that there many philosophers who admit indeterminism may be true but that it does not really explain free will ("hard" indeterminists?). See the standard argument against free will - If our actions are determined, we are not free. If they are random, we are not responsible for them. So indeterminism is not enough. We need a limited indeterminism in the first stage and also "adequate determinism" in the second stage of a two-stage model.

Agent-causal indeterminists are libertarians who think that agents have originating causes for their actions that are not events. Actions do not depend on any prior causes. Some call this "metaphysical" freedom.

Non-causal indeterminists simply deny any causes whatsoever for libertarian free will.

Event-causal indeterminists generally accept the view that random events (most likely quantum mechanical events) occur in the world. Whether in the physical world, in the biological world (where they are a key driver of genetic mutations), or in the mind, randomness and uncaused events are real. They introduce the possibility of accidents, novelty, and human creativity.

Soft Causality is the idea that most events are adequately determined by normal causes, but that some events are not precisely predictable from prior events, because there are occasional quantum events that start new causal chains with unpredictable futures. These events are said to be causa sui.

Soft Libertarians accept some indeterminism in the Actual Sequence. They are source incompatibilists.

While microscopic quantum events are powerful enough to deny strict determinism, the magnitude of these events is generally so small, especially for large macroscopic objects, that the world is still overwhelmingly deterministic. We call this "adequate determinism."

Although random quantum mechanical events break the strictly deterministic causal chain, which has just one possible future, random events are probable causes for later events. They start new causal chains with unpredictable futures. They are said to be causa sui. They need not be the direct cause of human actions, which would make the actions random, but simply provide alternative possibilities for willed actions.
This is not an exhaustive list.
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Re: Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:33 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:28 am He thinks his positions are fine unless other people can prove there is something he doesn't understand.
Think of how hard that task truly is: you have to make someone understand that there's something they don't understand. How can you do that, without making them understand the thing they're not understanding?

It's not necessarily impossible, but you'll need someone willing to listen to do it haha.
who thinks it's possible and who isn't expecting 'proof' but a shared discussion, yeah....
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