Philosophy Now Forum

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:32 am That which is aware of 'thought' is real, the true self.

Doesn't this seem made-up as well? "True self"? Staying focused on the context of the statement above: What is true? What is false? And what is this "self"?

This "self" we're speaking of is Consciousness. That's all there is. Its first order. Don't make the mistake of thinking it arises from neurons in the brain. Realization comes from first hand experience. Its not some faith or religion. It can't be understood from a Materialist/Physicalist paradigm.

Ramu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:56 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:32 am That which is aware of 'thought' is real, the true self.

Doesn't this seem made-up as well? "True self"? Staying focused on the context of the statement above: What is true? What is false? And what is this "self"?

Okay, so now we're talking to Dontaskme's sock puppet, "Ramu"? Why? Do you think pretending to be multiplied gives your statements more validity? Why isn't ONE good enough for you, when that's what you continually talk about?

Ramu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:56 pm This "self" we're speaking of is Consciousness.

So if you call it "self", that sounds like a separation from something, yes? Wouldn't it be better to say consciousness if that's what you mean?

Ramu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:56 pmThat's all there is. Its first order. Don't make the mistake of thinking it arises from neurons in the brain.

I'm not thinking any such thing. I think YOU are thinking SOMETHING, and giving it names, and then telling other people about it like you know it uniquely.

Ramu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:56 pmRealization comes from first hand experience.

Whose experience?

What is experience?

Ramu wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:56 pmIt can't be understood from a Materialist/Physicalist paradigm.

But you can't help but interject that, don't you see? Making it something you can "hold" and define and "know". And that's an illusion, right?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:26 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:23 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:37 am Awareness is not about disappearing of physical world, mindstuff and energy. It is about REAL LIFE IN NONDUALITY – IN THIS REAL BODY WITH THIS REAL MIND AND THIS REAL ENERGY.

Note Science can prove what is energy but that proof is limited to the Framework and System of Science.

How do you go about proving that real mind and real energy of yours?
What type of Framework and System are you using to prove your point?

The only framework I can think of is as and through the mind brain body experience.
Can this mechanism for 'thought structure' be inseparable from that which is aware of every thought?

What is the framework of 'the mind brain body experience' other than the living human framework.

Whatever you thought of and experienced has to be conditioned by the living human framework.

Therefore 'the real energy' and 'the real mind' you thought of, experienced and perceived is conditioned by the living human framework.
It cannot exists independently with you as a living human framework.

Notice that when ''thought'' is absent, awareness is still present.

There are many types of mental activities.
Thoughts are a resultant of merely mental activities [thinking].
There are many levels of thinking from very-conscious to the very-subconsciousness.
'Awareness' if without very conscious thinking is still a mental activity of the mind.
Therefore that 'awareness' that you think exists is still fundamentally a mental activity that is conditioned by a living human framework.

Note a person in coma may not be thinking consciously but there are still mental activities in the mind in the form of subconscious thoughts and mental activities.

Point is when a non-living body do not generate the above sort of thinking [conscious or subconscious] at all.

Without your thoughts, the world and the conception of 'you' leaves a vast nothingness and that is what you really are.
You don't need to prove this, you are this.

This is where you are deceiving your own self.
How do you know?
How can you prove that?
Your answer as above - i.e.
The only framework I can think of is as and through the mind brain body experience.

As you can see the answer will always loop back to the living human framework.

To think otherwise is reification of an illusion.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:23 amMy point is always,
what you think is real mind and real energy but unable to provide proof is merely an illusion arising from a desperate psychological drive to deal with an existential crisis.

A desperate psychological drive to deal with an existential crisis is the false identification with the ''I thought'' an appearance of source awareness.

The 'I thought' is an illusion, there is no separate 'I' having an existential crisis, although the idea of an existential crisis does arise, but that doesn't mean anything, it's just an illusion within the real you which is not-a-thing.
Nothing is real nor unreal, thinking makes it so, and there is not-a-thing thinking.

All you are trying to do AV is throw the baby out with the bath water. You can negate everything you like, but you cannot negate source.

Yes, I can negate everything, but what is fundamental is my living human framework as long as I am alive.

What is most pragmatically real is the current existential crisis.
The existential crisis is not an illusion in the pragmatic perspective.
The existential crisis is something so real [expressed in existential pains] that an individual must deal and resolve it in the present situation.
To soothe these existential pains, theists conjure God in various forms from anthropomorphic deity to a monotheistic God to your Absolute Source, your so called real thing.

I have no issue with theists conjuring a God to deal with that 'real' painful existential crisis but we have to take a stand when such a God exhorts believers to kill non-believers.

I also have no issue with your sort of beliefs [very refine] which is benign but for philosophical and discussion sake you need to understand the truth of the whole issue and the psychological existential crisis that conjure the idea of God.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:36 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:23 am
My point is always,
what you think is real mind and real energy but unable to provide proof is merely an illusion arising from a desperate psychological drive to deal with an existential crisis.

Also, the idea that there is a 'someone' having an existential crisis is akin to the fear of non-existence.
There is no known knowledge of non-existence whatsoever.
Neither is there any knowledge of 'I exist' ..therefore, any such knowledge is an illusion.

There is no 'you' thinking real minds and real energy, these are known concepts of awareness, appearances in and of...not-a-thing.
The world is a dream dreamt by no one.

I understand your above point which can only be understood when we think deeper philosophically. But the reality is the majority of people do not think deeply in the philosophically perspective.

Note as I have explained above,
from the beginning of humanity [earliest humans], what is most real and empirical is the existential crisis that is present in the brain/mind of ALL living human person and manifesting mental existential pains within the majority of people.

The idea of a God that exists is the most effective mean to soothe the existential pains and humans has been believing in an illusory God in various forms since the beginning.

Most of the ideas of God are crude and average. What you are postulating is a more refined form of theism but it is still illusory and driven by the existential crisis.

Buddhism understood the existential crisis and how it compel people to believe in a God to soothe the existential pains. With this understanding Buddhism avoid the idea of God [it has pros but it has also negatives] and focus to deal directly on the existential crisis. Unfortunately the majority of people do not have the psychological competence to adopt Buddhism proper [yet] thus Buddhism has to compromise with crude methods at present.


______

If you believe there is a 'someone' thinking about real mind and real energy.

And a 'someone' who is supposed to have a desperate psychological drive to deal with an existential crisis.

Then you have to prove who you think this 'someone' is?

If like I have demonstrated this 'someone' is an illusory thought arising in awareness, then what's the point in saying an illusion is having an existential crisis driven by another illusion that there is a desperate psychological drive.

All this is the BS of the mind.

You then have to prove the mind.

What the mind makes up makes no difference to awareness. Awareness is pure, it just looks on in detachment.

There is no real 'who that 'someone' is.'
It is the existential crisis and psychological drive that deceive theist to reify there is a 'who' that underlie a person or a that which underlie reality.

Whatever and whichever you argue, you will always fall back to the living human framework and this is the area we should focus on rather than on an illusory God which can never be proven as existing independently of the human framework.

Ask yourself;
What do you gain with a belief in God and
what do you lose by giving up the idea of a God?

The answer is you get psychological comfort with a belief in God and suffer existential pains and mental discomforts if you give up the idea of God.

One should be able to infer the whole central issue is psychological within oneself.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:35 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:26 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:23 am Note Science can prove what is energy but that proof is limited to the Framework and System of Science.

How do you go about proving that real mind and real energy of yours?
What type of Framework and System are you using to prove your point?

The only framework I can think of is as and through the mind brain body experience.
Can this mechanism for 'thought structure' be inseparable from that which is aware of every thought?

What is the framework of 'the mind brain body experience' other than the living human framework.

Whatever you thought of and experienced has to be conditioned by the living human framework.

Therefore 'the real energy' and 'the real mind' you thought of, experienced and perceived is conditioned by the living human framework.
It cannot exists independently with you as a living human framework.

I don't understand what you are saying, so have nothing to reply.

Notice that when ''thought'' is absent, awareness is still present.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:35 amThere are many types of mental activities.
Thoughts are a resultant of merely mental activities [thinking].
There are many levels of thinking from very-conscious to the very-subconsciousness.
'Awareness' if without very conscious thinking is still a mental activity of the mind.
Therefore that 'awareness' that you think exists is still fundamentally a mental activity that is conditioned by a living human framework.

No, awareness is not conditioned by a living human framework, because a living human framework is an illusion. Awareness has to be fundamental before any 'thought' aka 'mental activity' can be cognised as an illusion.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:35 amPoint is when a non-living body do not generate the above sort of thinking [conscious or subconscious] at all.

Consciousness needs awareness to be..but awareness does not need consciousness to be.

Without your thoughts, the world and the conception of 'you' leaves a vast nothingness and that is what you really are.
You don't need to prove this, you are this.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:35 amThis is where you are deceiving your own self.
How do you know?
How can you prove that?

I don't know, that's what nothingness means, it means not-knowing.
When nothing is known, everything is known. There is no proof necessary, proof only pertains to a separate self which is an illusion.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:23 am The existential crisis is something so real [expressed in existential pains] that an individual must deal and resolve it in the present situation.
To soothe these existential pains, theists conjure God in various forms from anthropomorphic deity to a monotheistic God to your Absolute Source, your so called real thing.

This so called existential pains are conjured up in the same way you assume theists conjure up a God. All this is mental activity, sourced by nothing.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:23 amI have no issue with theists conjuring a God to deal with that 'real' painful existential crisis but we have to take a stand when such a God exhorts believers to kill non-believers.

The belief in the idea there is a 'someone' called a theist who conjures up a God to deal with a painful existential crisis that then causes even more misery and confusion when this so called God then turns out to tell people to kill non-believers is just more mental mind quackery believed.
It's all total nonsense. NO THING IS CAUSING THIS. NO ONE IS DOING ANY OF THIS. All this mental quackery is the realm of ''THOUGHT'' believed.
Without the belief, nothing is happening.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:23 amI also have no issue with your sort of beliefs [very refine] which is benign but for philosophical and discussion sake you need to understand the truth of the whole issue and the psychological existential crisis that conjure the idea of God.

And you need to understand that that which does not exist cannot have a psychological existential crisis that conjures the idea of God..so stop spreading the seed of thought that will take on the form and shape of the thought because that's what energy is capable of, energy in what ever shape or form it chooses to manifest will have a mind of it's own if believed strongly enough. Give thought no power or attention, and watch what happens, nothing happens.

.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:09 am
Ask yourself;
What do you gain with a belief in God and
what do you lose by giving up the idea of a God?

The answer is you get psychological comfort with a belief in God and suffer existential pains and mental discomforts if you give up the idea of God.

One should be able to infer the whole central issue is psychological within oneself.

Nonduality is not about gaining anything, it's a losing game, it's about losing everything, in order to reach the truth that all is not-a-thing, and to know that not-a-thing is everything, and everything is nothing, it's really that simple. And nothing to do with any God or religious belief.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:09 amThe answer is you get psychological comfort with a belief in God and suffer existential pains and mental discomforts if you give up the idea of God.

Try talking to a nondualist about all this and it'll be all water off a ducks back...a nondualist is one who has studied the true nature of SELF.
Try talking that statement to a cat and watch it's reaction. It's total mind stuff, an illusory story signifying absolutely nothing. The human mind if it believes in this shite is indeed in a very poorly state. The mind of a nondualist in contrast doesn't think like that at all, the nondual mind is a mind of pure clarity.

I actually feel so much frustration that the human mind has to feel as if it owns a psychological self that has to be soothed, it's the sickness that is the human mind unfortunately....this belief is the cause of all human misery and suffering....even though this assumed believed psychological self simply doesn't exist...and that's why the study into the nature of SELF is a very important journey we all must take if we want to see suffering come to an end once and for all...knowledge of thyself is to dispel the common misperception that misery and suffering is personal when it's not.


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Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:17 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:32 am That which is aware of 'thought' is real, the true self.

Doesn't this seem made-up as well? "True self"? Staying focused on the context of the statement above: What is true? What is false? And what is this "self"?

Nothing is true or false, real or unreal, there is no self, but what thought thinks...put's there.

Life is a dream dreamt by no one.

.

Dreams come and go in a dreamer.

The dreamer is without beginning nor ending, therefore, cannot be negated, nor known, only the dream is known.

Dreams within dreams within dreams add infinitum.

.

Ramu wrote:
That's all there is. Its first order. Don't make the mistake of thinking it arises from neurons in the brain.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 amI'm not thinking any such thing. I think YOU are thinking SOMETHING, and giving it names, and then telling other people about it like you know it uniquely.

No one is thinking, thoughts arise spontaneously from nowhere, now here. No one has ever seen a thinker, a thinker is known. No one knows the known.

If you are going to act like a knower, then you won't have any need to seek another, for you will aready have knowledge of what it is you want to know, you being the knower and all.

.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am Okay, so now we're talking to Dontaskme's sock puppet, "Ramu"?

Why?

There's no puppet without animator.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDtcmqpB37s

.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:26 pm there is no self, but what thought thinks...put's there.

Life is a dream dreamt by no one.

Dreams come and go in a dreamer.

The dreamer is without beginning nor ending, therefore, cannot be negated, nor known, only the dream is known.

Dreams within dreams within dreams add infinitum.

And this is what you're making up.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:54 pm If you are going to act like a knower, then you won't have any need to seek another, for you will aready have knowledge of what it is you want to know, you being the knower and all.

Well, you do act like a knower, yet you appear to be seeking something. ???

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:26 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:16 am Okay, so now we're talking to Dontaskme's sock puppet, "Ramu"?

Why?

There's no puppet without animator.

Right, so? [I'm not going to click on the link you posted. I'm more interested in your direct answers, not some video that appeals to you.]

Why are you animating multiple versions of yourself, and then having them interact with each other here on the forum to bolster what you say, or you thank the "other" (and blow a kiss to it) for sticking up for you?

For someone who says all that you do, it seems like very disjointed behavior. As I've said before, you claim there is no "you" and no "one" and no "other" WHEN it serves your own claims or denial/avoidance -- yet you are creating "others" to be and to support that which you ultimately claim is nothing and doesn't exist. Don't you recognize the self-serving delusional nature of that? And do you think other people can't see it because you're ignoring (or unaware of) it?

I think you've taken spiritual insights and higher thought (or however one might describe it) and turned it into a toxic brew of madness for yourself. It isn't enough to see more broadly in a way that includes others... you have to "own" it... you have to "know" it... you have to tell everyone else how it is. And you tell them that they don't exist, while you create multiples of yourself. Truly, what the fuck, DAM? Why don't you speak really honestly about that right now, instead of babbling like you usually do when asked to look at your crap. Why are you so attached to it? Aren't you too smart to ignore that -- and too sensitive to create it?

Dontaskme wrote:
also better to stay neutral rather than to pursue meaning or purpose or have desire for happiness or desire for love all these are fleeting temp
oral expressions of energy that cannot be attained and serve only to make you miserable in their absence or pursuit of them. Bliss is naturally occurring within what you are by nature which is pure awareness one without a second this state is effortless

My natural state of mind is emotional detachment with a desire for contentment rather than happiness
I try not to become involved in the affairs of the world and instead only focus on that which affects me

My sense of detachment comes from the fact that I cannot change very much and also my existence is merely temporary
Energy may be eternal but the energy that is me will not always exist in this form and when it changes I will cease to be

Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:40 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:26 pm there is no self, but what thought thinks...put's there.

Life is a dream dreamt by no one.

Dreams come and go in a dreamer.

The dreamer is without beginning nor ending, therefore, cannot be negated, nor known, only the dream is known.

Dreams within dreams within dreams add infinitum.

And this is what you're making up.

No one is making this up..just as there is no one behind the reflected face in a mirror ...there's just the image of the imagless.

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Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:44 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:54 pm If you are going to act like a knower, then you won't have any need to seek another, for you will aready have knowledge of what it is you want to know, you being the knower and all.

Well, you do act like a knower, yet you appear to be seeking something. ???

The mind knows itself...meaning nothing is knowing itself. This is all not-knowing knowing.