Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

[Dontaskme]

Lacewing wrote:
As I said, some people are living fully in the current moment, which means there is NO outcome to obsess over--there is only NOW.

And is that the same "current moment" NOW that YOU are abusing and killing children IN, while you call it "living fully".

Do you feel fully alive KNOWING that you are abusing and killing children RIGHT NOW, while continuing to destroy the one and ONLY home that you have?

You can WANT to continue ON, exactly as you are NOW. But "others" prefer to LOOK TO seeing HOW they can change, themselves, for the better.

But like I say, you are FREE to choose to do whatever you want to do.

You can KEEP "living fully" and KEEP doing the harm and damage that you are doing RIGHT NOW to innocent human beings if you so WISH TO.

What's killing and abusing children got to do with being at peace within yourself right now living in the immediate moment, the only moment there is which is the only real reality? what's wrong with right now unless you think about it?

When we are all at peace within ourselves then there will be peace everywhere surely?
No one can change the world, they can only change themself, only then will their outer world reflect their inner world.



.

[Lacewing]

Really? You don't notice when people are making false claims... and that doesn't have an effect on their credibility for you? You just hear all talk as the same?

Any truth claim uttered is a false claim, but there is nothing wrong with a false claim...

Sure, sure, whatever. Yes, I understand all you said about nonduality. But with all due respect, you didn't answer the question. This is an example of you wanting to dance with nonduality when the question is clearly based on duality that we all live in. And it just seems rude that you're using another person as something to flitter off of... ...and I'm not going to invest my time and energy for that.

Notice nondualists never really challenge other nondualists because they know there is no one there to bounce off.

Sort of what I just noticed, yes? You are using "dualists" to bounce off of.

Yet... in order to do that, you are being a dualist, yes? Because a nondualist would see that there's no one else there, regardless of whether the conversation is of a dualist or nondualist nature.

there is no point pointing out errors in the messenger, we either accept the message or reject it..it's really that simple.

Then there would be no talking -- and nothing to say -- because we're ALL messengers.

are they acting like they are experts? ..isn't that just your opinion?

Yes, people often act like experts to some degree or another, including people who claim to be messengers with nondualist messages. People mix themselves up in their messages all the time, and let their egos do the talking even when they claim they're not. Sometimes they notice and acknowledge it, and sometimes they don't notice or acknowledge it. I know you know this is true... and this is what I'm speaking to.

Everyone has the same capcity to know exactly what they want to know, no one has overall authority or monopoly over knowledge...especially non dual knowledge

Of course. That doesn't change what I just said above.

I don't understand why you seem to believe the nondualist denies the ego existing, that's just not what is being pointed to in the message.

Because when it is pointed out that the ego is in play -- that the ego is being seen on the stage -- it is denied, and said to be "opinion".

If nondualists are STILL dancing with their monkey minds at times, how much of a nondualist are they, and what makes them so different from someone dancing in a dualist role more of the time? Truly, what difference is there? It's just different channels that people can switch between... and there are no clear channels.

Your channel-shifting has always been a nonsensical dance to me, which appears to be used for your advantage. Yes, you are free to do that to your heart's content. But it seems selfish and self-absorbed -- even though I'm know you are a kind and giving person -- and I've just tried to show you how it is perceived. For a person (like myself) who is trying to engage with you, it is like you are flittering around like a bug, and -- at those times -- there is just no point in hanging out to watch you. I understand that you are sharing what is dear to your heart, and perhaps I should be more patient... ...I'm just here to have fun while broadening my perspective, and some conversations take too much energy, which reduces the fun.

You and I see much the same -- we're just focused on it differently, I think. You say a lot of things to me that I already know/think -- which makes it seem that you're just talking at me, because you've already heard me reflect much of the same. So again, it's like you're using me to flitter off of... and that's just not compelling for me to engage with in that way. So I come up with my own fun ways of dealing with it.

[Dontaskme]

Atla wrote:
Our beloved cat just passed away, she had a better life than most cats, because we cared. This world is so much suffering, but we can ease the pain. And sometimes be a little happy, genuinely.
I won't accept those who fully detach from the world, claim it's all just an illusion anyway, leave everyone else behind, throw out the best in human nature.. just for some misguided, self-serving psychosis, in the name of enlightenment..

The belief that a person is enlightened, or takes on the name of the enlightened one is your suffering. No person ever became enlightened. And that is why you wallow in self pity that the world is such an awful uncaring place. You have absolutely no idea what enlightenment means, if you did you would not have made such a statement the one you made above. OMG, you really need to study nonduality with a more indepth enthusiasm, so that you actually understand what is actually going on here. Instead of making ridiculous claims about what you think you know but don't.

Do you forget that the universe is totally giving and giving freely and unconditionally every waking minute of the day without rest, without moaning and complaining about it?

The Awareness that you are can take it all, it takes it ALL ....all the hurting, the suffering, the pain, the depression, the killing and the selfishness, and the knowing that it's all an illusion...it takes and endures it ALL there is no burden on you to carry any of it, it carries you without moaning about it, in it's unconditional love for itself.

You seriously are so lost in self pity, it's pityful. I actually feel sorry for you.

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[Dontaskme]

You and I see much the same -- we're just focused on it differently, I think. You say a lot of things to me that I already know/think -- which makes it seem that you're just talking at me, because you've already heard me reflect much of the same. So again, it's like you're using me to flitter off of... and that's just not compelling for me to engage with in that way. So I come up with my own fun ways of dealing with it.

That's why it's called the dance of life, it takes two to tango and to be aware of not wanting to tread on each others toes, but to dance in harmonistic sync. ..although it's okay to be out of step now and again, as part of learning to master the dance moves.

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[Age]

I might be on the biggest "Ego trip", as you call it, but that is because I can explain absolutely EVERY thing I say down to the smallest detail.

Age can explain Absolutely with a capital A ...EVERY thing down to the smallest detail.

Where are you getting the capital A from in usage with the absolute word here?

Also, instead of NOT believing this is true, why not just prove it is true.

Question and challenge me on absolutely EVERY thing I say.

Either I can do what I say OR I will be SHOWN to be WRONG, in which case I will LEARN more and/or anew, which is only of benefit for me.

The reason I write in such provocative ways, some times, is to promote a challenge and/or evoke some curiosity, and thus clarifying questioning.

I do NOT know how else to encourage these virtues in "others".

But then notice, he says other people can NOT ..isn't that a strange assumption?

But how is that any assumption at all? I have asked you, for example, to explain some things but you say you can NOT. So, there is NO assumption here. That is just the facts. Obviously NOT all people can explain ALL things.

What exact same comment have I said to dontaskme? That you can NOT explain things and that your words are coming across as more confusing?

If that is it, then so what? Am I not allow to express what I SEE?

YES..what you said to AlexW..you also repeated the exact same comment to me as well. That I can NOT explain things, rather my words are confusing.

So I replied by saying...give it a rest informing people they can NOT explain things...

Am I NOT allowed to point out what is actually happening HERE?

Do you NOT like it SHOWN that you can NOT explain some thing or that you do NOT know some thing?

I have found a LOT of human beings do NOT like these things KNOWN, by "others". This surprised me very much at first, that is until I fully understood WHY human beings are like this.

If my revealing this fact to "others" does NOT promote some sort of reaction in order to get either of you and/or others to challenge me, then I will have to LOOK FOR other ways.

Asking nicely has NOT worked. Writing obviously outrageous, although True, statements does NOT work. TRYING TO cause a reaction or over reaction does NOT work, so how else can I promote the challenging of One's Self from "others"?

So what? if they cannot explain things according to you...

It is NOT about being "according to me". It is about Honesty and Openness.

Any thing can be explained in any way. But if it can NOT be explained, then that is fine also.

Is there any rule anywhere within human beings that states that pointing out that some one can NOT explain some thing and making this KNOWN is NOT permissible?

If i do NOT know some thing, then I literally just say; "I do NOT know".

It really is just that simple and easy. And, absolutely NOTHING to be ashamed about also.

The only way a human being can KNOW some thing is through experience, and if a human being has NOT yet experienced some thing, then WHY would they even be ashamed of NOT knowing that thing?

Is the judging and ridiculing that you human beings do upon each other so strong that you actually become embarrassed and ashamed of not knowing the answer to some or other question/s?

Are they not allowed to NOT be able to explain things without being confusing?

As I have previously stated; If some thing is expressed as being ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, TRUE and/or CORRECT, then expect to be questioned and/or challenged in regards to that. If what is being expressed can NOT be explained without being confusing, then that just means that it can NOT be explained, without being confusing. Nothing more and nothing less.

I KNOW exactly how hard it is to explain things, especially when "others" BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE the contrary. I can NOT even express that I do NOT beliefs without that being "confusing" for, and/or DISBELIEVED by, some.

Except to say, it's probably, if not actually not at all confusing for the author else why would they be saying anything at all?...

I just gave an example of just one of countless things I VERY EASILY understand within this body, but when expressed become VERY confusing to some. I KNOW how hard it can be to explain just one simple and easy thing to one person, who ASSUMES and/or BELIEVES otherwise, let alone how HARD it is to explain to a whole generation of human beings who ASSUME and/or BELIEVE the absolute contrary, to what I will one day say and express.

in the same context, you yourself have said you know exactly how to explain things, but then claim that others are confusing.

Am I NOT allowed to express nor claim how "others" are coming across to me?

How "others" are coming across to me does NOT mean that they are WRONG in what they are saying. I am just expressing HOW THEY ARE COMING ACROSS, TO ME.

I also like to explain WHY what they are expressing would be confusing to "others".

Now, the thing is, I could say that about your explanations,

If that is HOW my explanations come across TO YOU, then great, SAY IT. I WANT TO HEAR IT. But I also WANT to hear WHERE exactly this confusion happens and WHY exactly the confusion comes across whatever way it does.

But hearing things like, "You make noise" and/or "Can't you recognize your own noise" is of NO help at all to me or "others" who are TRYING TO read and understand this.

I can say yours are confusing as well, even though they make sense to you...and that's why I said give it a rest.

But if ANY thing I say is confusing to you, then why NOT just say that. WHY say "give it a rest"? Who is that going to help? Tell me WHAT parts exactly are confusing to you, and, WHY exactly they are confusing to you. If you WERE to do that, then that COULD help both of us as I will certainly LEARN how to communicate better, and you MIGHT better understand Me, and exactly WHERE I AM COMING FROM.

It's quite a reasonable thing to say actually...but then obviously not according to you.

Especially NOT for the reasons I have just given.

Saying, "Give it a rest" can be interpreted as saying, "Just shut up i/we do NOT want to hear what you have to say". And then once the "other" has SHUT UP, that frees up more space and time for the first one to KEEP saying what they WANT TO express.

Now this is the really confusing part....Look, you've already announced that you CAN explain absolutely EVERY thing down to the smallest detail.

Yes correct I have.

So, ...why would you need to seek clarification, and for what exactly?

i seek clarification from "you" and "others" to SEE just how much you KNOW in regards to what you are talking about.

What most people KNOW comes from what they have studied and learned, which just comes from what is already written down or "out there". What people can explain, just SHOWS me what other or newer ways I be able to explain particular and certain things. The responses I get, and the way they ARE responded, also teaches me a great deal as well in regards to communicating better.

I do NOT seek clarification to necessarily learn what they want to express, if however there is some thing new to learn then that is even better, but I just seek clarification to learn HOW TO communicate better.

surely if you've got this nailed...then what is the purpose of communicating with others, why would thier opinion matter to you?

Did you forget? I am here in this forum to learn HOW to communicate better.

The PURPOSE of communicating with "others" is to learn how to communicate better with "them".

you've already admitted you can explain absolutely EVERY thing down to the last detail.

Yes I HAVE admitted that, and yes I CAN do that.

Would you like to challenge Me on any of this?

If not to SEE if there is any real Truth in this from your perspective but also so i can SEE if I can actually do it or not.

The actual and real Truth WILL BE revealing.

.

I am NOT sure what what this means nor what it is in reference to exactly.

Would you like to explain?

[Dontaskme]

Sure, sure, whatever. Yes, I understand all you said about nonduality. But with all due respect, you didn't answer the question. This is an example of you wanting to dance with nonduality when the question is clearly based on duality that we all live in. And it just seems rude that you're using another person as something to flitter off of... ...and I'm not going to invest my time and energy for that.

I answered the question the only way I know how. But what ever I say to you will never be good enough for you.

So just fuck the fuck off then. Or just use your own tactic you throw at others and shut the fuck up.

No one is forcing you to reply to me.


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[Dontaskme]

Your channel-shifting has always been a nonsensical dance to me

Then fuck off and stop trying to challenge what is nonsensical to you.

It will never make sense to you.

Stop wasting my time thinking and believing and hoping it will by challenging it to death. Stop trying to flog dead fucking horses you deaf dumb and blind deluded idiot.

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[Atla]

Do you forget that the universe is totally giving and giving freely and unconditionally every waking minute of the day without rest, without moaning and complaining about it?

The Awareness that you are can take it all, it takes it ALL ....all the hurting, the suffering, the pain, the depression, the killing and the selfishness, and the knowing that it's all an illusion...it takes and endures it ALL there is no burden on you to carry any of it, it carries you without moaning about it, in it's unconditional love for itself.

Not a word of this is true, you have merely gone insane. You are hallucinating 24/7.
I don't have this luxury, plus I also have bigger plans so I'm keeping it real.

[Dontaskme]

Not a word of this is true, you have merely gone insane.

So where does that come from the collective belief of sanity?

Seriously, you need to go insane now and again, it will literally free you of your obssessive need for sanity.

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[Atla]

Seriously, you need to go insane now and again, it will literally free you of your obssessive need for sanity.

My mind takes in too much information about the world, not possible for me to go insane. Plus I also despise mental weakness.

[Dontaskme]

I might be on the biggest "Ego trip", as you call it, but that is because I can explain absolutely EVERY thing I say down to the smallest detail.

Age can explain Absolutely with a capital A ...EVERY thing down to the smallest detail.

Where are you getting the capital A from in usage with the absolute word here?

Also, instead of NOT believing this is true, why not just prove it is true.

Question and challenge me on absolutely EVERY thing I say.

Either I can do what I say OR I will be SHOWN to be WRONG, in which case I will LEARN more and/or anew, which is only of benefit for me.

The reason I write in such provocative ways, some times, is to promote a challenge and/or evoke some curiosity, and thus clarifying questioning.

I do NOT know how else to encourage these virtues in "others".

But then notice, he says other people can NOT ..isn't that a strange assumption?

But how is that any assumption at all? I have asked you, for example, to explain some things but you say you can NOT. So, there is NO assumption here. That is just the facts. Obviously NOT all people can explain ALL things.

What exact same comment have I said to dontaskme? That you can NOT explain things and that your words are coming across as more confusing?

If that is it, then so what? Am I not allow to express what I SEE?

YES..what you said to AlexW..you also repeated the exact same comment to me as well. That I can NOT explain things, rather my words are confusing.

So I replied by saying...give it a rest informing people they can NOT explain things...

Am I NOT allowed to point out what is actually happening HERE?

Do you NOT like it SHOWN that you can NOT explain some thing or that you do NOT know some thing?

I have found a LOT of human beings do NOT like these things KNOWN, by "others". This surprised me very much at first, that is until I fully understood WHY human beings are like this.

If my revealing this fact to "others" does NOT promote some sort of reaction in order to get either of you and/or others to challenge me, then I will have to LOOK FOR other ways.

Asking nicely has NOT worked. Writing obviously outrageous, although True, statements does NOT work. TRYING TO cause a reaction or over reaction does NOT work, so how else can I promote the challenging of One's Self from "others"?

So what? if they cannot explain things according to you...

It is NOT about being "according to me". It is about Honesty and Openness.

Any thing can be explained in any way. But if it can NOT be explained, then that is fine also.

Is there any rule anywhere within human beings that states that pointing out that some one can NOT explain some thing and making this KNOWN is NOT permissible?

If i do NOT know some thing, then I literally just say; "I do NOT know".

It really is just that simple and easy. And, absolutely NOTHING to be ashamed about also.

The only way a human being can KNOW some thing is through experience, and if a human being has NOT yet experienced some thing, then WHY would they even be ashamed of NOT knowing that thing?

Is the judging and ridiculing that you human beings do upon each other so strong that you actually become embarrassed and ashamed of not knowing the answer to some or other question/s?

Are they not allowed to NOT be able to explain things without being confusing?

As I have previously stated; If some thing is expressed as being ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, TRUE and/or CORRECT, then expect to be questioned and/or challenged in regards to that. If what is being expressed can NOT be explained without being confusing, then that just means that it can NOT be explained, without being confusing. Nothing more and nothing less.

I KNOW exactly how hard it is to explain things, especially when "others" BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE the contrary. I can NOT even express that I do NOT beliefs without that being "confusing" for, and/or DISBELIEVED by, some.

Except to say, it's probably, if not actually not at all confusing for the author else why would they be saying anything at all?...

I just gave an example of just one of countless things I VERY EASILY understand within this body, but when expressed become VERY confusing to some. I KNOW how hard it can be to explain just one simple and easy thing to one person, who ASSUMES and/or BELIEVES otherwise, let alone how HARD it is to explain to a whole generation of human beings who ASSUME and/or BELIEVE the absolute contrary, to what I will one day say and express.

in the same context, you yourself have said you know exactly how to explain things, but then claim that others are confusing.

Am I NOT allowed to express nor claim how "others" are coming across to me?

How "others" are coming across to me does NOT mean that they are WRONG in what they are saying. I am just expressing HOW THEY ARE COMING ACROSS, TO ME.

I also like to explain WHY what they are expressing would be confusing to "others".

Now, the thing is, I could say that about your explanations,

If that is HOW my explanations come across TO YOU, then great, SAY IT. I WANT TO HEAR IT. But I also WANT to hear WHERE exactly this confusion happens and WHY exactly the confusion comes across whatever way it does.

But hearing things like, "You make noise" and/or "Can't you recognize your own noise" is of NO help at all to me or "others" who are TRYING TO read and understand this.

I can say yours are confusing as well, even though they make sense to you...and that's why I said give it a rest.

But if ANY thing I say is confusing to you, then why NOT just say that. WHY say "give it a rest"? Who is that going to help? Tell me WHAT parts exactly are confusing to you, and, WHY exactly they are confusing to you. If you WERE to do that, then that COULD help both of us as I will certainly LEARN how to communicate better, and you MIGHT better understand Me, and exactly WHERE I AM COMING FROM.

It's quite a reasonable thing to say actually...but then obviously not according to you.

Especially NOT for the reasons I have just given.

Saying, "Give it a rest" can be interpreted as saying, "Just shut up i/we do NOT want to hear what you have to say". And then once the "other" has SHUT UP, that frees up more space and time for the first one to KEEP saying what they WANT TO express.

Now this is the really confusing part....Look, you've already announced that you CAN explain absolutely EVERY thing down to the smallest detail.

Yes correct I have.

So, ...why would you need to seek clarification, and for what exactly?

i seek clarification from "you" and "others" to SEE just how much you KNOW in regards to what you are talking about.

What most people KNOW comes from what they have studied and learned, which just comes from what is already written down or "out there". What people can explain, just SHOWS me what other or newer ways I be able to explain particular and certain things. The responses I get, and the way they ARE responded, also teaches me a great deal as well in regards to communicating better.

I do NOT seek clarification to necessarily learn what they want to express, if however there is some thing new to learn then that is even better, but I just seek clarification to learn HOW TO communicate better.

surely if you've got this nailed...then what is the purpose of communicating with others, why would thier opinion matter to you?

Did you forget? I am here in this forum to learn HOW to communicate better.

The PURPOSE of communicating with "others" is to learn how to communicate better with "them".

you've already admitted you can explain absolutely EVERY thing down to the last detail.

Yes I HAVE admitted that, and yes I CAN do that.

Would you like to challenge Me on any of this?

If not to SEE if there is any real Truth in this from your perspective but also so i can SEE if I can actually do it or not.

The actual and real Truth WILL BE revealing.

.

I am NOT sure what what this means nor what it is in reference to exactly.

Would you like to explain?

I do NOT know anything about what you have discussed in this exchange.

[Dontaskme]

Seriously, you need to go insane now and again, it will literally free you of your obssessive need for sanity.

My mind takes in too much information about the world, not possible for me to go insane. Plus I also despise mental weakness.

Lucky there is no such condition then.

Except what the mind puts there via belief.

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[Dontaskme]

I, however, neither BELIEVE nor DISBELIEVE any thing

If you don't believe anything, then there's no requirement to not believe what you already don't believe is there?

It's true that one aka the ( I )doesn't need the belief they are, they simply are, no belief is needed. This simple fact of being is the divine oxymoron that is a no position position.

But as soon as that position of no position is taken up by the knowledge that someone else can have a belief then you've artificially superimposed a belief on your no belief position.

You cannot know if another person has a belief while at the same time denying yourself of all belief...all you are doing is creating the idea of there existing a belief that others can have without realising that the seed of thought that others can have a belief is manifesting in you yourself, that you then planted in another...the seed of belief that someone else can have a belief came from you, you created the idea, not someone else...and then you project your own seed of thought which is just an assumption onto others saying it's theirs...denying it's yours..well done Age, that makes perfect sense doesn't it?

So that idea about a belief belonging to someone has come from you, the you that denies it has a belief, and yet assumes others can have one...the assumption is a projection of your own belief that other people have a belief...that's your own assumption, it does not belong to another.

So in essence Age, you are not making any sense are you when you say you have no belief, because it's you who is making up the idea in the first place, the idea of belief belongs to you... it's your own grown concept....that you then deny having...you remind me of someone trying to wash away blood using blood.

.

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Don't forget to address this post Ken, not that I'm assuming you will, you don't miss a trick do you?

I'm waiting for you to address this one ..it will no doubt get you thinking REAL HARD for a change, instead of just you constanly repeating the same old worn out shit time after time after time like a broken record going round and round getting nowhere.

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[AlexW]

But who is stopping?

Thee I does NOT want to stop.

WHY does "alexw" WANT TO stop?

There is so MUCH MORE to discuss, discover, and/or learn here, so WHY stop NOW?

We don't have to stop discussing - lets just stop talking like we are from some far away planet...

So an absolute True perspective of ALL things would be AN Ego also, correct?

See, this is where we have different views:
I say: There is NO "absolute True perspective".

Look... what do you know that is absolutely TRUE?
Disclaimer: this is a rhetoric question as the answer will follow shortly.
AND: Please read the whole text and don't pick it apart sentence by sentence - it is not necessary to answer to every single one - just one commont about what is being said would be fine - but... if you still feel the urge to pick it apart, thats also ok

Investigation leads to only ONE Truth: I AM

"I am" is really and truly ALL you can say that cannot be faulted - whatever concept grows on top of "I am" can be questioned, can be viewed in different lights, can be believed and a few things are even found to be facts (which can also be refuted).
Now you can wander around in this world of assumptions, views, perspectives, beliefs and facts, draw your own personal border between them, treat some ideas/concepts as assumptions, some as views, some as part of your perspective, some as beliefs and some as facts - its up to your individual upbringing/conditioning where the lines between these categories are drawn, but ultimately they are ALL the same - they are made up, they are ideas - now you can call them a view or a belief or a fact, but this is a mental distinction that doesn't hold any water.

All you TRULY know is "I AM" - this doesn't mean that you have to know what "I" is, or what "am" means, but there is this wordless knowledge that cannot be lost. It is present when the body is born (and even "before"), it is there after you learn the concept of "I am a person", it is there at death AND it is even there when there is no objective experience (e.g. in deep sleep). It is not "in" time as it is not affected by objective experience (=conceptual thought), it is without individuality, eternally present - now.

While experiencing "the world" the closest you can get to this impersonal Being is the witness (let me know if you don't know what that means). Transcending the witness (something that can happen spontaneously) leads to non-dual consciousness, pure being, in this "state" there is no world, no object, no separation - it is pure AM, absolute Truth, but there is nothing so say about it (besides the non-conceptual knowledge of "I am").

[Lacewing]

Then fuck off and stop trying to challenge what is nonsensical to you.

Isn't this forum for challenging nonsensical crap that people spew?

See, you don't deserve politeness... and your nonduality comes and goes, perhaps dependent on your daily medication, which you evidently forgot to take today.

It will never make sense to you.

Bullshit is like that.

you deaf dumb and blind deluded idiot.

Who exactly do you think you're talking about? It sounds like you've just described yourself -- considering how inconsistent your nonduality is, and how intolerant and dishonest you become when faced with feedback and other perspectives.