Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

[Dontaskme]

Whether a view doesn't need to be right or wrong still needs a belief that the view is without belief....the assumption made that there is no belief present has to be believed...any assumption made needs a belief before it can be viable... if there is no belief there..then there is no view point either... they go together, no belief, no view...else nothing would make sense....no belief, no movie.

Agree and well said! - I like that.

Thank you AlexW

[AlexW]

I have continually expressed that I am here in this forum to LEARN how to communicate better.

I have NOT had much dealings nor communications with human beings prior to this, so there is a great deal for Me to learn from human beings in this regard.

The more I am taught in regarding communication with human beings, then the better I become.

Well , I can tell you one thing, trying to come across as the "impersonate" Absolute is a sure recipe to break down every discussion into meaninglessness.

You seem to "believe" ... ah.. sorry, I know you don't like this word - then again, you don't have any preferences regarding words... then again... maybe I should better write: There seems to be the view that the ONE is separate from us, poor human beings, and that this ONE has to learn how to better communicate with these beings... There also seems to be the view that the ONE can learn how to do this from these human beings.

Is the ONE sure that IT is talking to human beings? Maybe IT is actually talking to ITself?
Could it be that a "human being" is only a thought-up entity which is part of the ONE's perspective/view? And that maybe this view is not the only True View but simply another part of the regular, if very unusual, perspective labeled "age"?

I am happy to continue talking to you, but maybe we can do this as regular people do? I don't mind if you think you are talking as the voice of the One, but even the One should talk to human beings in their language, this might actually really teach you how to communicate better.
There is an old saying: If on a pirate ship, its a good idea to (pretend to) be a pirate.

[AlexW]

Reminds me of this story (not that any of us would be a Zen master or Tibetan Lama... then again, I can only speak for myself...)

Seventy-year-old Kalu Rinpoche of Tibet, a veteran of years of solitary retreat, and the Zen master Seung Sahn, the first Korean Zen master to teach in the United States, were to test each other's understanding of the Buddha's teachings for the benefit of the onlooking Western students. This was to be a high form of what was being called Dharma Battle, and we were waiting with all the anticipation that such a historic encounter deserved. The two monks entered with swirling robes -- maroon and yellow for the Tibetan, austere grey and black for the Korean -- and were followed by retinues of younger monks and translators with shaven heads. They settled onto cushions in the familiar cross-legged positions, and the host made it clear that the younger Zen master was to begin. The Tibetan lama sat very still, fingering a wooden rosary (_mala_) with one hand while murmuring, _"Om mani padme hum"_ continuously under his breath.
The Zen master, who was already gaining renown for his method of hurling questions at his students until they were forced to admit their ignorance and then bellowing, "Keep that don't know mind!" at them, reached deep inside his robes and drew out an orange. "What is this?" he demanded of the lama. The Tibetan sat quietly fingering his mala and made no move to respond.
"What is this?" the Zen master insisted, holding the orange up to the Tibetan's nose.
Kalu Rinpoche bent very slowly to the Tibetan monk near to him who was serving as the translator, and they whispered back and forth for several minutes. Finally the translator addressed the room: "Rinpoche says, 'What is the matter with him? Don't they have oranges where he comes from?"

[Age]

Remarkable how vast, detailed, deep, assured some people's insanity is, must have taken decades to build it all up. "Age" has by far the biggest ego trip of us all here.

I might be on the biggest "Ego trip", as you call it, but that is because I can explain absolutely EVERY thing I say down to the smallest detail.

The "Ego trip" I am on however is for the benefit of ALL, and not just some.

[Age]

The more writings under the "alexw" label, which is TRYING TO explain things and make things clearer are only contradicting themself and creating more confusion, for to itself.

The writings under the "alexw" label is at a point that it can NOT even explain anything whatsoever any more. Those writings are now so confused that it even questions what is the point of explaining things.

Seriously Ken you need to give it a rest...

Give WHAT EXACTLY a rest?

Asking clarifying questions?
Challenging?

If I said to you, Seriously dontaskme you need to give "it" a rest, then WHAT do you think I am referring to EXACTLY?

Because seriously dontaskme you do need to give "it" a rest.

you said the exact same comment to Dontaskme character too, and you've probably said the same comment to others as well.

What exact same comment have I said to dontaskme? That you can NOT explain things and that your words are coming across as more confusing?

If that is it, then so what? Am I not allow to express what I SEE?

What the heck do you expect people to say to you?

To answer my questions Openly and Honestly. Nothing more, and nothing less. And also to explain in further detail what they are actually saying. If they can NOT do that, then that is perfectly fine. But just make that clear.

all they can say is what they say, from what they know, and from the only way they can express that knowing..

Yes very true, however, if one is going to express that they KNOW that the non-dual True Self is NOT able to KNOW some things, then expect to be questioned and expect to be asked to explain HOW they KNOW this. If any person is going to TRY TO speak for the non-dual True Self, then they COULD clarify EVERY question and explain down to the smallest detail absolutely EVERY thing they say.

If one wants to TRY TO write in non-dual format, then do it consistently AND accurately. And expect to be questioned AND challenged, like I do.

do you not think you go a little bit overboard with you're demands and expectations of how people express their knowledge?

If, and when, people express their knowledge from the THIS IS JUST MY VIEW perspective, then I do NOT demand nor expect any thing. However, when a person expresses their knowledge from the THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, RIGHT, and/or CORRECT perspective, then I do demand and expect that they can back up and support what they ALLEGE.

I PURPOSELY write from that ABSOLUTE perspective some times, to evoke a response in the hope that I WILL be questioned AND challenged, (unfortunately though this rarely happens. The reason for this lace of questioning is because you human beings do NOT yet know the answer yourselves), anyhow because I love to be challenged and questioned I also return the favor.

Do you want everyone to write it in such a way that would suit you so that it pleases you,

If EVERY one wrote, and spoke, in a Truly Open and Honest fashion, then that would be greatly appreciated. If, however, people continue to write in this forum as they do now in a generally dishonest and closed fashion, then that is great also. The more evidenced produced the more support I have for what I will eventually put forward and SHOW.

and have it presented in such a way that conforms with your own understanding,

No, because I do NOT expect human beings to have the UNDERSTANDING that I have yet.

the way you want it to be presented just so that makes you happy?

Either way "it" is presented is perfectly fine with Me. Both ways work perfectly for Me.

How absolutely EVERY thing is right NOW is absolutely perfect and how it is meant to be.

..is that what you want?

I want EVERY one to do EXACTLY as they are NOW.

If you are trying to be a better communicator then you're capacity to communicate with others is hindering that goal for you,

What do you mean by "my capacity" to communicate with others is hindering my goal to learn how to communicate better?

What is "my capacity to communicate with others"?

it's not a helpful to say the stuff you're saying as a way of achieving what you are trying to achieve.

What "stuff" am I saying, which is NOT helpful?

And, what is that you think I am trying to achieve?

If you are still talking about 'learning how to communicate better', then instead of telling me that the "stuff" I am saying is NOT helpful (whatever that stuff is), then either help me by explaining further what "stuff" are you referring to and/or explain what I could be doing BETTER, which would be MORE helpful.

Do you not like people writing in a non-dual format?

.

Either way I do NOT care.

But if any one is TRYING TO express any thing from an ABSOLUTE perspective, then I will question it AND challenge it.

Do you prefer I do NOT do that?

Would you much prefer that I only ask you questions that I obviously already KNOW you could answer instead?
Would you also prefer that I only ask you to explain that I KNOW you already could?

If you have NOT yet noticed I do this asking clarifying questions AND challenging to ALL people, who write as if they KNOW answers, and NOT just to the one's who like to TRY TO write in a non-dual format.

[Atla]

Not going all the way with the awakening process is usually worse than not starting it at all.

I've seen this. People who have discovered just enough new awareness to be dangerous with it, without recognizing their own influences in convoluting it.

It is true that we nondualists are "knowers", we do know something that ~98-99% of people in Western cultures do not, namely what our "true nature" is. But after the second awakening we are led back to reality, to the world of (apparent) separateness, with an ego.

This makes sense. For me, there is no reason for greater awareness to detach from being human. It is possible to have one's head in the Heavens while one's feet are dancing on the Earth because it's all one.

Awake or not it doesn't matter much, we are only human.. and there's nothing beyond that for us, no "higher plane".. we only have each other (and our animals).
Our beloved cat just passed away, she had a better life than most cats, because we cared. This world is so much suffering, but we can ease the pain. And sometimes be a little happy, genuinely.
I won't accept those who fully detach from the world, claim it's all just an illusion anyway, leave everyone else behind, throw out the best in human nature.. just for some misguided, self-serving psychosis, in the name of enlightenment..

[AlexW]

But if any one is TRYING TO express any thing from an ABSOLUTE perspective

Guess you are referring to our discussions, so let me answer if I may:

I said multiple times: The ABSOLUTE/ONE has no perspective of its own.
Perspectives are for egos - perspectives ARE egos.
All perspectives are known. Who knows them? The one who should (better: can) not be named -- (pun intended).

Thus I was not ever trying to "express any thing from an ABSOLUTE perspective" - as there is no such perspective.
All I was doing is play pirates with you.
Why did we play? We simply did.
Why do we now stop? We simply do.

[Age]

Remarkable how vast, detailed, deep, assured some people's insanity is, must have taken decades to build it all up. "Age" has by far the biggest ego trip of us all here.

It's a whole lot of noise.

If all you see and hear is a whole lot of "noise", then so be it. Just maybe you are NOT looking and listening properly?

I think such noise is a sign of the deepest kind of self-indulgent and self-deceiving intoxication.

When "noise" comes from the one and only True Self, then I can be as Self-indulgent as I want to be.

Human beings do, however, have a tendency to block out the actual and real Truth with and from their OWN noise. The noise one hears and sees might be the noise from their own small self and NOT the noise from the True Self.

If "noise' is self-deceiving or not, then this will have to wait to be SEEN, which will be soon enough anyway.

It appears to reveal a crucial need to feel/be in control at some highest/greatest cosmic level (like an evolved over-the-top religious mindset better than all others), yet the noise reveals much to the contrary of what is projected.

Instead of just saying " "noise" reveals much to the contrary" why do you NOT just point out WHERE the actual falsity, wrongness, and/or incorrectness IS?

Just mentioning "noise" all the time could be see, and heard, as just more noise. WHAT parts EXACTLY do you SEE and FIND fault?

It's fascinating when a creative force is unable to recognize the outcomes of its own influence.

But just maybe I do already RECOGNIZE and KNOW exactly what the outcome WILL BE, which I am influencing HERE NOW.

What outcome are you "lacewing" able to recognize?

There is after all only One Creative Energy here at work. But there are a multitude of self-deceiving egos also at play, and they are TRYING TO work out what is actually going on HERE.

[Lacewing]

It's a whole lot of noise.

If all you see and hear is a whole lot of "noise", then so be it. Just maybe you are NOT looking and listening properly?

Just maybe you really are making a whole lot of noise.

When "noise" comes from the one and only True Self, then I can be as Self-indulgent as I want to be.

Well, yes, you are very self-indulgent...and no, it doesn't seem dependent on any particular claim you make.

The noise one hears and sees might be the noise from their own small self and NOT the noise from the True Self.

Or it might really be noise from people like you.

If "noise' is self-deceiving or not, then this will have to wait to be SEEN, which will be soon enough anyway.

Some people are living fully in the current moment and have no interest in waiting or depending on fantasy timelines.

Instead of just saying " "noise" reveals much to the contrary" why do you NOT just point out WHERE the actual falsity, wrongness, and/or incorrectness IS?

The tendency of your tedious questioning seems to show that you are so obsessively fixated on debating little details, you completely miss or avoid a broader picture being pointed out to you. Do you seriously not recognize the noise you make? Yes, we all make noise to different degrees. You seem especially noisy, which is why I pointed it out. And (to me) such a level of noise suggests a lesser amount of clarity, awareness, understanding, and peaceful acceptance. Such manic communication is unnecessary for open and connected minds. You seem to be in a love affair with your claims and questioning, which is why you repeat them over and over.

But just maybe I do already RECOGNIZE and KNOW exactly what the outcome WILL BE, which I am influencing HERE NOW.

Maybe you're making it all up to entertain yourself. As I said, some people are living fully in the current moment, which means there is NO outcome to obsess over--there is only NOW.

What outcome are you "lacewing" able to recognize?

I don't care. All is in order.

there are a multitude of self-deceiving egos also at play, and they are TRYING TO work out what is actually going on HERE.

Yes, that appears to be what you are doing. Have fun with that!

[Dontaskme]

I might be on the biggest "Ego trip", as you call it, but that is because I can explain absolutely EVERY thing I say down to the smallest detail.

Age can explain Absolutely with a capital A ...EVERY thing down to the smallest detail.

But then notice, he says other people can NOT ..isn't that a strange assumption?

What exact same comment have I said to dontaskme? That you can NOT explain things and that your words are coming across as more confusing?

If that is it, then so what? Am I not allow to express what I SEE?

YES..what you said to AlexW..you also repeated the exact same comment to me as well. That I can NOT explain things, rather my words are confusing.

So I replied by saying...give it a rest informing people they can NOT explain things...

So what? if they cannot explain things according to you...Are they not allowed to NOT be able to explain things without being confusing?
Except to say, it's probably, if not actually not at all confusing for the author else why would they be saying anything at all?...in the same context, you yourself have said you know exactly how to explain things, but then claim that others are confusing. Now, the thing is, I could say that about your explanations, I can say yours are confusing as well, even though they make sense to you...and that's why I said give it a rest. It's quite a reasonable thing to say actually...but then obviously not according to you.

Now this is the really confusing part....Look, you've already announced that you CAN explain absolutely EVERY thing down to the smallest detail.

So, ...why would you need to seek clarification, and for what exactly? surely if you've got this nailed...then what is the purpose of communicating with others, why would thier opinion matter to you? you've already admitted you can explain absolutely EVERY thing down to the last detail.



.

[Age]

Remarkable how vast, detailed, deep, assured some people's insanity is, must have taken decades to build it all up. "Age" has by far the biggest ego trip of us all here.

It's a whole lot of noise. I think such noise is a sign of the deepest kind of self-indulgent and self-deceiving intoxication. It appears to reveal a crucial need to feel/be in control at some highest/greatest cosmic level (like an evolved over-the-top religious mindset better than all others), yet the noise reveals much to the contrary of what is projected. It's fascinating when a creative force is unable to recognize the outcomes of its own influence.

I'm so goddamn tired of all the people who are convinced that they channel the voice of the Absolute/God. I don't see it as creative..

And some people are so goddamn tired of all the people who complain about how they are so goddamn tired of what all the other people say, but yet they continue to listen to them, and then complain about how they are "so goddamn tired of them".

[Age]

Thought is what is expressed through and from this human body.

AlexW wrote: Sounds like a belief.

If anything "sounds" like a belief, or anything else, that has NO bearing on what that "thing" actually IS.

Here is a concept. Can this be understood? Absolutely anything can be expressed through a human body as just being a view only, which may or may not be right, without that view having to be a belief.

Now, if that can be understood, then accept that this I does NOT have a belief.

If that can NOT be understood, then WHY NOT?

Whether a view doesn't need to be right or wrong still needs a belief that the view is without belief....

But that is just your belief.

I find it extremely easy and simple to just LOOK and gain VIEWS, without ever necessarily having to believe that that view is either true nor false.

I can just SEE without believing.

the assumption made that there is no belief present has to be believed...

But it does NOT have to be believed, nor disbelieved.

If I have a belief, then PROVE it by SHOWING it.

Until then what is being expressed is just another belief, without any actual evidence nor proof for it.

any assumption made needs a belief before it can be viable...

Lol

To do BOTH assume and have a belief to me is just being doubly stupid.

By the way there are plenty of assumptions made, with, and without belief, that are NOT viable at all.

Believing in an assumption does NOT make it any more viable than what it Truly IS.

In fact believing in an assumption can be a sign that the assumption is even weaker or more wrong than it is BELIEVED to be.

if there is no belief there..then there is no view point either...

Any examples?

I saw what I thought was a plane fly by. Do I believe I saw a plane fly by? No. Do I have a view point that a plane flew by? Yes.

No belief, but a view point still exists.

they go together, no belief, no view...else nothing would make sense....no belief, no movie.

What?

There are probably billions of views, from within this body. Do I believe or disbelieve any one of them? The short answer is, No.

In fact do I even believe that there are billions of views within the body? The answer is, No, again.

The very SIMPLE reason I neither believe nor disbelieve any thing is because if I were to, then I would NOT be OPEN.

You can't just say ''Thought is what is expressed through and from this human body.'' without believing that what you've said is real else what you've said is totally meaningless....

But you are totally WRONG. As I do NOT believe that.

What was said MIGHT be totally meaningless. If I were believing things, then I would NOT be OPEN. And, if I were NOT OPEN, then I would NOT be able to SEE if what I said was totally meaningless, if, and when, that is ever pointed out to me.

you might just as well have said...treacle pudding is what is expressed through and from this human body..but who would have believed that, it doesn't make sense?

Who would BELIEVE any thing? I do NOT. To me there is NO point to believe any thing, especially if said thing could actually be false, wrong, or incorrect or partly false, partly wrong, and/or partly incorrect anyway.

The point is, as soon as a truth statement is uttered, there has to be some belief attached to it, else what is the point of saying it?

Because some times VIEWS just like to be expressed. VIEWS do NOT have to believed. Contrary to popular BELIEF, I am living proof of this.

The very fact that uttering a "truth statement" by its very definition means that it could NOT possibly be absolutely any thing else. Now that is BELIEF SYSTEM at work, and at its finest work as well.

If like you say, no beliefs are necesary, then really, there is nothing to show up on the screen of awareness...no point to make.

Maybe there is NO point at all to make, and maybe the very reason I am here to just learn how to communicate better is, in a way, more proof that there is NO point to make at all.

If you think/believe that there is a point to make, then WHY NOT just make that point?

The I (blank screen of awareness) doesn't need to believe to be a blank screen of awareness IT JUST IS

Are you now arguing for what I am saying or for what you have been saying?

But as soon as something shows up on that screen like a ''thought statement'' then belief must also be present,

Why do you BELIEVE this SO STRONGLY?

I can and DO very easily express the thoughts/views from within this body and place them on screens and I NEVER 'have to' believe a single one of them.

for example.. the thought arises...I am a human...will mean nothing without a belief attached to it that validates the thought.

To even THINK such a thing, let along BELIEVE it to be true, is beyond any reasonable comprehension to Me.

I KNOW WHY that thought arises within human beings, but to want to express it and worse to BELIEVE it, just speaks of the stupidity of what being a human being can be.

It's about story telling, or movie making...no belief, no story, just a blank screen.. no belief, no movie, just a blank screen.

.









.

If you want to make up a make-belief story, then go right ahead. And, if you want to BELIEVE that story, then you are FREE to do so also.

I, however, neither BELIEVE nor DISBELIEVE any thing (except for that one thing I have said previously).

[Age]

It appears to reveal a crucial need to feel/be in control at some highest/greatest cosmic level (like an evolved over-the-top religious mindset better than all others), yet the noise reveals much to the contrary of what is projected. It's fascinating when a creative force is unable to recognize the outcomes of its own influence.

I'm so goddamn tired of all the people who are convinced that they channel the voice of the Absolute/God. I don't see it as creative..

Yes, it seems absurd. I think some of the mental stuff humans do is very creative (even if dull) -- simply the way we justify and avoid and imagine so much. If only such energy could be put toward getting clear of one's own entanglements and spins --

If you see ANY entanglements and spins in ANY thing I write, then just CLEARLY expose them, explain HOW and WHY you SEE entanglement and spin, and then WE can discuss.

Just saying there are things like; entanglements and spins, noise, building untouchable cocoons, et cetera in people's writings does NOT mean they are there. Writing the way you do just SHOWS you see things, which MAY or MAY NOT actually be there.

rather than being manic moths building untouchable cocoons better than the next guy's. It's especially surprising to see nonduality being espoused by people who are clearly tangled in duality, yet they refuse to acknowledge their humanness.

When you say by "people" would you care to elaborate on who those "people" are exactly. Or, is this more of your 'just leave it to the imagination' way of writing?

If that quote was in any way in relation to I, then you could NOT be any further from the Truth even if you tried to be.

It is dishonest...and full of ego.

Writing in a way that alludes to some things, like "entanglements", "spins", "noise", "certain people", et cetera but NEVER actually being totally honest about who one is talking about and in WHAT EXACTLY also might be seen as DISHONEST and full of ego in and of itself.

Just some thing to consider and think about.

It would be so refreshing to communicate some of these concepts in a clear space instead of wrestling with the egos that pretend not to be there.

Yes it would be.

Such deception sounds like yet another manipulated religion for self-gain.

VERY TRUE.

The way ALL people can project their own selves in and through their own writings is VERY TRUE as well, which can be HIGHLIGHTED in ways that were NEVER expected ALSO.

[Age]

I'm so goddamn tired of all the people who are convinced that they channel the voice of the Absolute/God. I don't see it as creative..

Yes, it seems absurd. I think some of the mental stuff humans do is very creative (even if dull) -- simply the way we justify and avoid and imagine so much. If only such energy could be put toward getting clear of one's own entanglements and spins -- rather than being manic moths building untouchable cocoons better than the next guy's. It's especially surprising to see nonduality being espoused by people who are clearly tangled in duality, yet they refuse to acknowledge their humanness. It is dishonest...and full of ego. It would be so refreshing to communicate some of these concepts in a clear space instead of wrestling with the egos that pretend not to be there. Such deception sounds like yet another manipulated religion for self-gain.

Exactly!
What truly bothers me is the negative impact such people have on the world.

Another one who alludes to some thing but NEVER actually expresses what it Truly IS.

What is the "negative impact" "on the world" that bothers you?

Who are "such people" who have this alleged "negative impact"?

And, what do you mean by 'world' when you say "negative impact on the world"?

But then again I've already given up on it..

Are you absolutely sure of this?

Do you really BELIEVE that you have "already given up on "it"? (whatever "it" may be?)

Would you like to clarify on WHAT you have supposedly "given up on" exactly?

[Dontaskme]

But that is just your belief.

I find it extremely easy and simple to just LOOK and gain VIEWS, without ever necessarily having to believe that that view is either true nor false.

I can just SEE without believing.

You are stating that you can see I have a belief here ... saying you can see that I have a belief without you believing I have a belief?

Is that what you are saying?

.