Philosophy Now Forum

the evidence of what is already self-evident.

What evidence, DAM?

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:25 am

phyllo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:42 pm

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:35 pm
I mean that we have a non-physical form which interfaces with our physical form. When we permanently drop or temporarily detach from our physical form, our non-physical form has its own sensory experiences according its own non-physical means...

Some kind of spirit or soul which exists without a physical form?

Bingo.

Precisely!

Harry, isn't it funny how the skeptics and naysayers of metaphysical ideas are willing to accept the "scientific" suggestion that approximately 96 percent of the universe appears to be made of some sort of "dark" substance (as in dark matter/dark energy) that lies beyond the reach of our measuring devices,...

...yet, they freak out at any suggestion that there might exist a dark and unmeasurable substance from which our minds and souls are created.
_______

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:20 am I wonder why we have physical bodies at all if they are not needed for interaction with physical reality.

It's needless to say that I could be wrong about all of this, however,...

...I suggest that the physical body represents the means by which the mind (soul) is initially birthed (awakened) into existence. And once the soul experiences its second and final birth into "true reality" through the process we call "death," the physical body, like some higher form of "placental afterbirth," is discarded...



...and left behind within the universe....

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:20 am Why eyes if we can see without them?

You do not "see" the vivid, three-dimensional features of your dreams with your "physical" eyes...



No, your physical eyes are but mere "windows" that allow the mind's inner "agent" to peer outward into the universe, which, in truth, is the inner dimension of the mind of a higher Being (think Berkeleyanism).

Indeed, our physical body, which is created from the mental substances of a higher mind, is not only the means by which the higher mind has awakened our own minds into existence,...



...but also functions as a multi-sensory "interface" that (momentarily) allows us (our inner "I Am-ness") to literally see, feel, hear, smell, and taste another agent's very thoughts (its "mental constructs/mental holography"),...

...of which the physical body itself (along with its various corresponding "windows") is nothing more than a mental construct (albeit unthinkably advanced).

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:20 am I wonder why there are lots of physical people and not many non-physical spirits in the world.

Again, it's because this physical world...

(which, in essence, is God's cosmic "womb")

...is the means by which the so-called "spirit world"...

(which is simply a higher mental realm)

...is populated.

Indeed, the higher (transcendent) realm exists above and outside of this physical world in pretty much the same way that the general reality of this earthly realm existed above and outside of your momentary stay within your mother's womb, as I tried to demonstrate in yet another of my fanciful illustrations...



The captions read as follows:

"...let us make man in our image..."

"...one of us..."

"...The occupants of the realm on the other side of this barrier are as profoundly "more awake" relative to adult humans on earth, as adult humans on earth are "more awake" relative to a fetus in the human womb..."

(Click on the following link to see a series of illustrations tied to the one directly above: http://theultimateseeds.com/murmurings.htm)
_______

Well, the idea that we are like the fetus before birth doesn't seem to work.

The fetus has no use for eyes or brains. These organs develop so that they may be used after birth.

But in the case of spirits, these organs are completely unnecessary since the spirit can see and think without them.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:15 pm Well, the idea that we are like the fetus before birth doesn't seem to work.

The fetus has no use for eyes or brains. These organs develop so that they may be used after birth.

But in the case of spirits, these organs are completely unnecessary since the spirit can see and think without them.

phyllo, they have lost every last shred of common sense. This place has, without a shadow of a doubt, gone utterly insane.

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:01 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:20 am I wonder why we have physical bodies at all if they are not needed for interaction with physical reality.

It's needless to say that I could be wrong about all of this, however,...

...I suggest that the physical body represents the means by which the mind (soul) is initially birthed (awakened) into existence. And once the soul experiences its second and final birth into "true reality" through the process we call "death," the physical body, like some higher form of "placental afterbirth," is discarded...


...and left behind within the universe....

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:20 am Why eyes if we can see without them?

You do not "see" the vivid, three-dimensional features of your dreams with your "physical" eyes...

No, your physical eyes are but mere "windows" that allow the mind's inner "agent" to peer outward into the universe, which, in truth, is the inner dimension of the mind of a higher Being (think Berkeleyanism).

Indeed, our physical body, which is created from the mental substances of a higher mind, is not only the means by which the higher mind has awakened our own minds into existence,...

...but also functions as a multi-sensory "interface" that (momentarily) allows us (our inner "I Am-ness") to literally see, feel, hear, smell, and taste another agent's very thoughts (its "mental constructs/mental holography"),...

...of which the physical body itself (along with its various corresponding "windows") is nothing more than a mental construct (albeit unthinkably advanced).

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:20 am I wonder why there are lots of physical people and not many non-physical spirits in the world.

Again, it's because this physical world...

(which, in essence, is God's cosmic "womb")

...is the means by which the so-called "spirit world"...

(which is simply a higher mental realm)

...is populated.

Indeed, the higher (transcendent) realm exists above and outside of this physical world in pretty much the same way that the general reality of this earthly realm existed above and outside of your momentary stay within your mother's womb, as I tried to demonstrate in yet another of my fanciful illustrations...



The captions read as follows:

"...let us make man in our image..."

"...one of us..."

"...The occupants of the realm on the other side of this barrier are as profoundly "more awake" relative to adult humans on earth, as adult humans on earth are "more awake" relative to a fetus in the human womb..."

(Click on the following link to see a series of illustrations tied to the one directly above: http://theultimateseeds.com/murmurings.htm)
_______

^^
This is pure lunacy.

The only reason you can perceive anything (including imagining and thinking up these crazy concepts) is because you have a functioning brain working within a functioning body.

Without the body pumping blood, oxygen and nutrients into your brain. You can not think or perceive anything. Even HOW your brain thinks is directly influenced by gut bacteria, hormones, chemicals, etc. which control your desires for food, sex, etc. This is what makes you you.

Drink some booze or take a drug and suddenly you act and think differently (based on what you put into your stomach or bloodstream).
Cut off oxygen to the brain for 1-2 minutes and the person becomes a vegetable. Do it for longer and the brain dies. Everything that was you dies. (except for the memory of you in other people's minds).

The idea of a 'soul' is unbelievably insane. "You" can't be anything without your eyes and other senses to perceive the world, sending electrical signals to be interpreted by your brain.

You think that somehow, magically, this 'entity' (a "soul") can exist and think without any of the mechanisms which allowed you to exist and think in the first place (not to mention that that physical aspect/chemistry is actually what makes you who you are).

The brain is a wonderful thing, and so is the mind, and they can entertain all kinds of wild ideas. But in the end, it's all physical. Don't get too carried away by your imagination just because you have one.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:25 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:50 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:10 pm
It doesn't have to be. And nothing is gained by making it a conflict.

If philosophers all agreed with each other there would be nothing of philosophy to discuss.

Moreover intelligent people learn by their mistakes which may be pointed out to them by others.

There's beating someone, there's winning, there's strategy, tactics, maneuvering, manipulation, control.

Which is what they think it's all about.

To be sure it is nice when someone else understands what you are talking about. It's not much use to anybody when your opponent is unreasonable.

Hear, hear!

Nazon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:38 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:23 pm

Nazon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:18 pm Even scarier and sadder, is that perhaps that without religion, many people would behave with no morals.

“No morals,” you say?

Which “morals” do you mean?

And since you deny that religions can supply any legitimate ones, from whence are you deriving these “morals” you allege we ought to follow without reference to religion?

By morals I simply mean not being hurtful to other human beings or lying, cheating, etc....

Those are Christian morals. For instance, Islam allows taqqiya (lying), as do various other traditions, depending on who is being deceived and under what circumstances. In some tribal traditions, hatred, deception and betrayal are considered positively virtuous, especially when practiced on enemies of the tribe. And for Satanism, deception and hurtfulness are sacraments, because they worship “the Father of Lies.” Hence, the inverted pentagram.

Nietzsche hated Judeo-Christian morality, and called it “slave morality,” and told people to get “beyond good and evil.” Rand said that the weak deserved to be thrust to the back of the pack, and Social Darwinists hold that there, the lions can eat them…and it will be good for the human race when that happens. And Communists hold that enemies of the state can be treated in any way necessary to the advancement of its program.

Where are all those morals you list actually found? In particular, where are the niceties you listed even extended universally, and to enemies as to friends?

Christianity.

So your complaint about “morals” amounts to, “It’s scary that people won’t follow a Christian moral without being Christian.”

Yep, that’s a real shame.

But fortunately for you, it’s not true. They often follow Christian moral values out of a sense of tradition or habit, rather than a deep conviction of the truth of the wrongness of deception, cheating or being hurtful. So we’re fine for a bit, until they figure out that they have no reason to keep doing that.

BigMike wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:27 pmHear, hear!

Isn't it "hear here."

Or maybe "here, here."

Alternatively "Here, hear".

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:49 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:27 pmHear, hear!

Isn't it "hear here."

Or maybe "here, here."

Alternatively "Here, hear".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:49 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:27 pmHear, hear!

Isn't it "hear here."

Or maybe "here, here."

Alternatively "Here, hear".

Well, that third one I thought I invented...since it is the most rational one

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:24 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:40 pm

Harry Baird wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:35 pm

I mean that we have a non-physical form which interfaces with our physical form. When we permanently drop or temporarily detach from our physical form, our non-physical form has its own sensory experiences according its own non-physical means.

I'm not far off retiring for the night, so, if you respond, you might have to wait for a response in turn.

No worries Harry. I'll see you in lucid electric dreams, as I am about to nod off too.

However, if you believe in the two different conscious experiences, one while within the body, then on that account you are admitting that those experiences ARE dependent in some way upon the material body.

Sure: while in the body, experience is mediated via the body, and, in particular, sensory experience is mediated via the body's physical sense organs, and in that respect, you could say that experiences while in the body are "dependent" in some way upon the material body.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:40 pm The one, 'out of body'...well I'd be interested in picking your brain regarding what qualia conscious experience is maintained then...for example...sight most definitely?

First off: I don't claim to be an expert on this. I've never been out of body myself. I've just read/watched a fair few reports of those who have, especially during near-death experiences (NDEs). That said:

Yes, sight most definitely does seem to be experienced while out of body. Some people report 360 degree vision. Some people report seeing colours that don't exist in the physical world. Physically blind people report seeing for the first time while out of body.

I haven't particularly taken note of which other senses are reported while out of body, but I'd hazard a guess that all of the standard five physical senses have non-physical correlates.

Also, and I don't know whether you'd consider this a "sense", but some out-of-body experiencers report communicating telepathically with others who are out-of-body, and some of them report reading the thoughts of those still in body (reports which were later confirmed by the person who was thinking the thoughts).

attofishpi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:40 pm And on that 'out of body' concept, then surely you have some level of spiritual belief, God?

Yes. Definitely.

Harry, I am starting to like you rather a lot..

Consider this

- GOD/'GOD' (operating continuously in "real-time" from the top down)
- PHYSICS
- CHEMISTRY
- BIOLOGY
- REALITY (conscious perception)

Since I know God/'God' exist I shall include it into the above list as it is likely to be fundamental to the 5th point in the list. This entity MANIFESTS throught ALL matter including our brains, ergo it is my belief that we would not have consciouness without it

Consider that list operating in real-time - shimmering fields of vibrating energy, at the behest of the 1st in the list.

So in the case of NDE - out of body - and after death ...consciousness - a key part of what is required to be conscious - one could call it a soul, is commandered by the GOD, and it does, whatever IT does.

Nazon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:23 pm
The only reason you can perceive anything (including imagining and thinking up these crazy concepts) is because you have a functioning brain working within a functioning body.

Without the body pumping blood, oxygen and nutrients into your brain. You can not think or perceive anything. Even HOW your brain thinks is directly influenced by gut bacteria, hormones, chemicals, etc. which control your desires for food, sex, etc. This is what makes you you.

Drink some booze or take a drug and suddenly you act and think differently (based on what you put into your stomach or bloodstream).
Cut off oxygen to the brain for 1-2 minutes and the person becomes a vegetable. Do it for longer and the brain dies. Everything that was you dies. (except for the memory of you in other people's minds).

The idea of a 'soul' is unbelievably insane. "You" can't be anything without your eyes and other senses to perceive the world, sending electrical signals to be interpreted by your brain.

You think that somehow, magically, this 'entity' (a "soul") can exist and think without any of the mechanisms which allowed you to exist and think in the first place (not to mention that that physical aspect/chemistry is actually what makes you who you are).

The brain is a wonderful thing, and so is the mind, and they can entertain all kinds of wild ideas. But in the end, it's all physical. Don't get too carried away by your imagination just because you have one.

Right in every way. What's really ironic is that all of this silly soul or mind stuff, as if it were some separate entity from the material which produced it, all of this BS derives from the physicality of the brain itself which never had a problem imagining anything even that which is supposed to outlast it.

The brain is the total of what we are; once that's gone, we default to the nothing we were before we had a body and brain...and people don't like that, it's too absolute! The greatest manifestation of beyond good and evil is expressed by nature itself in its processes completely exempt of any such agencies in its operation. All existence is rooted in the physical without which nothing - as well as our entire population of imaginary gods - could exist, external to the physical cause of what created it.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:36 pm

the evidence of what is already self-evident.

What evidence, DAM?

You're the evidence.

You do not need proof. Proof is for imposters.. don't be an imposter. Always be yourself, the real fictional character. The proof is in the yorkshire pudding.

Just One Taste, is all you need..