Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:26 pm And minds, as I was saying, are not physical entities, but non-physical ones. So non-physical entities can be real.
Nope...There's no such idea as a non-physical entity.
An “idea” is a non-physical entity. So is a “mind,” and “reason,” and “consciousness,” and “identity,” and a whole bunch of other things.
So if there’s no such thing, then “you’re” not talking to “me,” and nothing “you” say can possibly be a “communication” or “rational,” or “make sense” or “signify” anything. And there is nothing “wrong” or “right” about that.
Your claim refutes itself, and thus I don’t need to bother.
Life is happening IC
You do not need to bother making it happen, because it's happening whether you say it is or it is not.
And there is nothing you can do to make what is happening not happen.
You are not doing anything, you are being done.
But you do not understand this, you reject this, I cannot make you see the error in your thinking, only you can see that, so be it.
If what is being said here is seen as mad by you there, then you are not alone in your madness.
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:40 pm
"Punched into oblivion"?
Is that what happens in a philosophy forum?
Do you know what a “metaphor” is?
You think it's a fight and I don't.
You’re making too much of a metaphor.
But the metaphor’s not unique to me. Debate is often characterized that way. It’s a trading of views, with the goal of the most vigorous case being “left standing,” so to speak.
I'd prefer this post not get lost in someone else's *faux-outrage over bein' called out for strategizin'
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:27 pm
All I wanna know: how is it you, if you're comprised of nuthin' but unconscious electrons, protons, and neutrons, can stare at your device screen, read, understand, and be moved (be angry or triumphant or uncomfortable or whatever it is you're feelin') and know it. You're (self) conscious and, somehow, you say, this is solely becuz of unconscious particles.
You know how electrons, protons, and neutrons, unconscious as they are, make consciousness, or you don't.
If you do: please, tell me.
If you don't: admit it and concede the possibility there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
It's about the drive to be winning over other people's ideas to join with the other side of the argument. But to win is to make someone else lose, and no one wants to lose in philosophy.
Philosophy is a game for ego, it goes nowhere because there is nowhere else to go but to the truth which is nowhere, now here, we all have it, because we are it.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:18 pm
(E)lectrons, neutrons, and protons don't, cannot, understand, make sense of, grasp meaning, etc
The universe is nothing but particles. All those particles follow laws of motion. They aren’t free. The brain is made up entirely of those same particles. Therefore, there is nothing in the brain that would give us freedom. These particles also don’t understand anything, they don’t make sense of anything, they don’t grasp the meaning of anything. Since the brain, again, is made up of those particles, it has no power to allow us to grasp meaning or understand anything. But we do understand. We do grasp meaning. (So), we are talking about qualities we possess which are not made out of (particles. Qualities that don't, cannot, result from particles acting or interacting). These qualities are entirely non-material.
I am, however, perfectly willin' to review evidence that illustrates, explains, how electrons, neutrons, and protons might be conscious; or evidence, an explanation, of how these unconscious particles can come together in a certain way and become conscious, imaginative, loving, hateful, despairing, hopeful, etc.
I'm always lookin' to minimize and simplify so any such evidence would allow me to jettison concepts like dual substance/dual aspect and The Creator in favor of the pure materialism and atheism I embraced no more than four years ago, that I embraced pretty much my whole life.
henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:18 pm
(E)lectrons, neutrons, and protons don't, cannot, understand, make sense of, grasp meaning, etc
The universe is nothing but particles. All those particles follow laws of motion. They aren’t free. The brain is made up entirely of those same particles. Therefore, there is nothing in the brain that would give us freedom. These particles also don’t understand anything, they don’t make sense of anything, they don’t grasp the meaning of anything. Since the brain, again, is made up of those particles, it has no power to allow us to grasp meaning or understand anything. But we do understand. We do grasp meaning. (So), we are talking about qualities we possess which are not made out of (particles. Qualities that don't, cannot, result from particles acting or interacting). These qualities are entirely non-material.
I am, however, perfectly willin' to review evidence that illustrates, explains, how electrons, neutrons, and protons might be conscious; or evidence, an explanation, of how these unconscious particles can come together in a certain way and become conscious, imaginative, loving, hateful, despairing, hopeful, etc.
I'm always lookin' to minimize and simplify so any such evidence would allow me to jettison concepts like dual substance/dual aspect and The Creator in favor of the pure materialism and atheism I embraced no more than four years ago, that I embraced pretty much my whole life.
It's put up or shut up time.
Nope, you'll never win an argument with other selves because there isn't a self. A self will never know truth using concepts because the self is a concept..
Knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of reality. Dream on Henry.
Yeah, so DAM has nuthin' to offer, no evidence that illustrates, explains, how electrons, neutrons, and protons might be conscious; or evidence, an explanation, of how these unconscious particles can come together in a certain way and become conscious, imaginative, loving, hateful, despairing, hopeful, etc.
What a plague upon modern humanity, this obsolete societal evolutionary leftover, the psychological manipulation trickery called religion.
First established through violence, oppression, fear, desire to control, and lack of undestanding of the universe. Now perpetuated by indoctrinating the young.
Even scarier and sadder, is that perhaps that without religion, many people would behave with no morals. So, I guess, in order to instill morals and order into the majority of people who are natually evil or dumb, the most efficient way has been to create and perpetuate this great lie.
Nazon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:18 pm
Even scarier and sadder, is that perhaps that without religion, many people would behave with no morals.
“No morals,” you say?
Which “morals” do you mean?
And since you deny that religions can supply any legitimate ones, from whence are you deriving these “morals” you allege we ought to follow without reference to religion?
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:14 pm
Yeah, so DAM has nuthin' to offer, no evidence that illustrates, explains, how electrons, neutrons, and protons might be conscious; or evidence, an explanation, of how these unconscious particles can come together in a certain way and become conscious, imaginative, loving, hateful, despairing, hopeful, etc.
Anyone else?
LOL..ooooh you so funny man, you make me ribs tickle.
Henry, my dear Henry...consciousness does not need any explaining, that's for people who question it's actual existence.
Which it obviously is...but the more begging question is, who is wanting to explain what is already self-evident, I mean what an imposter to ever dare to question the evidence of what is already self-evident.
Nazon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:18 pm
Even scarier and sadder, is that perhaps that without religion, many people would behave with no morals.
“No morals,” you say?
Which “morals” do you mean?
And since you deny that religions can supply any legitimate ones, from whence are you deriving these “morals” you allege we ought to follow without reference to religion?
By morals I simply mean not being hurtful to other human beings or lying, cheating, etc....
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:48 pm
I'd prefer this post not get lost in someone else's *faux-outrage over bein' called out for strategizin'
henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:27 pm
All I wanna know: how is it you, if you're comprised of nuthin' but unconscious electrons, protons, and neutrons, can stare at your device screen, read, understand, and be moved (be angry or triumphant or uncomfortable or whatever it is you're feelin') and know it. You're (self) conscious and, somehow, you say, this is solely becuz of unconscious particles.
You know how electrons, protons, and neutrons, unconscious as they are, make consciousness, or you don't.
If you do: please, tell me.
If you don't: admit it and concede the possibility there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Yeah, so phyllo, like DAM, like BM, has nuthin' to offer, no evidence that illustrates or explains, how electrons, neutrons, and protons might be conscious; or evidence of how these unconscious particles might come together in a certain way and become conscious, imaginative, loving, hateful, despairing, hopeful, etc.
Anyone else?
If not: we might have to call a draw and return the thread to those who wanna endlessly examine Christianity.
I am, however, perfectly willin' to review evidence that illustrates, explains, how electrons, neutrons, and protons might be conscious; or evidence, an explanation, of how these unconscious particles can come together in a certain way and become conscious, imaginative, loving, hateful, despairing, hopeful, etc.