Philosophy Now Forum

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:13 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:17 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:01 pm There are no miracles in nature. Life is a process already well-understood so let's not get sentimental about babies which can be mass-produced without end. Among the living, human or not, there exists plenty which is undesirable and easily dispensable.

I'm not referring to clones but What is the life force which unites the sperm and egg to produce a baby?

Neither was I referring to clones otherwise we'd have over 8 billion clones on the planet with more on the way; we'd all be looking in the mirror with each person encountered! The "life force" is that which is inherent in the chemical process of producing life. Physics and chemistry combine to produce everything there is of which life is only ONE manifestation. Though it may seem miraculous, the emergence of life is established only on that foundation, the combination of elements which produce it. I don't think it's incorrect to say that nature in its blindness is capable of generating what seems thaumaturgic which obviously, in hindsight, must also include us to regard it in that way. In short, life force is equivalent to a specific combination of the pre-existing non-living elements which produce it. It's natural to regard that as a semblance of the miraculous while understanding that nature doesn't host a single miracle in its entire portfolio.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:36 pm
True, but why not kill it? Might makes right. We know there are many people who prefer to kill snakes. What makes them wrong? I would say it is your conscience.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:36 pm Is it really wrong to ponder why we are as we are?

why not kill it?

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:44 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:13 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:17 pm

I'm not referring to clones but What is the life force which unites the sperm and egg to produce a baby?

Neither was I referring to clones otherwise we'd have over 8 billion clones on the planet with more on the way; we'd all be looking in the mirror with each person encountered! The "life force" is that which is inherent in the chemical process of producing life. Physics and chemistry combine to produce everything there is of which life is only ONE manifestation. Though it may seem miraculous, the emergence of life is established only on that foundation, the combination of elements which produce it. I don't think it's incorrect to say that nature in its blindness is capable of generating what seems thaumaturgic which obviously, in hindsight, must also include us to regard it in that way. In short, life force is equivalent to a specific combination of the pre-existing non-living elements which produce it. It's natural to regard that as a semblance of the miraculous while understanding that nature doesn't host a single miracle in its entire portfolio.

I agree that miracles don't exist. They are the result of material interactions we don't understand so call them miraculous. Perhaps one day Alchemy can be proven to be an exact science. But as of now, we don't know what the life force is. If we don't know, how can we respect it?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:28 am

why not kill it?

if it's not threatening you, and you aren't hungry, the question is: why kill it?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:28 am

why not kill it?

if it's not threatening you, and you aren't hungry, the question is: why kill it?

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:32 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:44 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:13 pm

Neither was I referring to clones otherwise we'd have over 8 billion clones on the planet with more on the way; we'd all be looking in the mirror with each person encountered! The "life force" is that which is inherent in the chemical process of producing life. Physics and chemistry combine to produce everything there is of which life is only ONE manifestation. Though it may seem miraculous, the emergence of life is established only on that foundation, the combination of elements which produce it. I don't think it's incorrect to say that nature in its blindness is capable of generating what seems thaumaturgic which obviously, in hindsight, must also include us to regard it in that way. In short, life force is equivalent to a specific combination of the pre-existing non-living elements which produce it. It's natural to regard that as a semblance of the miraculous while understanding that nature doesn't host a single miracle in its entire portfolio.

I agree that miracles don't exist. They are the result of material interactions we don't understand so call them miraculous. Perhaps one day Alchemy can be proven to be an exact science. But as of now, we don't know what the life force is. If we don't know, how can we respect it?

If you respect the idea, which you always mention, of there being some kind of objective truth containing a purpose, even if you don't know what that is, including everyone you ever quoted, how can you not respect the life force whose manifestation is everywhere? There seems to be a contradiction here!

Alchemy has had its day being a precursor to a far more exact science called chemistry. Alchemy may have dreamed up a mythical homunculus but it was the science of chemistry which unraveled the human genome and revealed the functions of DNA, genes and chromosomes...not to mention, having recently created one of the most dangerous technologies of all...Crisper.

“Force is as pitiless to the man who possesses it, or thinks he does, as it is to its victims; the second it crushes, the first it intoxicates. The truth is, nobody really possesses it.”
― Simone Weil, War and the Iliad

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 4:26 am Christianity asserts that Man's spiritual blindness and the power of imagination denying the opportunity to be born again assures man as a whole or what Plato called the Beast, will remain at the same quality of being responding to "force" leading to the same cyclical qualities of life including war and peace

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:33 am
Similar in Islam, a "Muslim" implied a believer who had entered into a contract [divine covenant] (Arabic ʿahd and mīthāq) with Allah with the Quran containing all the terms of the contract.
Unfortunately, the Quran, i.e. the terms of the contract for a Muslim, contains commands that they kill non-Muslim upon any threat* [fasadin] to Islam.
*Disbelieving Islam itself is a threat among others, e.g. drawing of cartoons, etc.
As such, Islam is an inherently evil laden religion.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:59 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:28 am

why not kill it?

if it's not threatening you, and you aren't hungry, the question is: why kill it?

Some kill to establish superiority as in might makes right. It is what justifies genocides

bobmax wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:45 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:25 pm Is a baby a miracle? What is this life force producing sperm and eggs, yang and yin, in human beings. It arises from the earth some would call a miracle. Being born again or born from above is similar except that the life force descends from above rather than arising from below. Can the miracle of life be understood or must it remain a miracle?

The fact that everything that happens has a cause and that this can have an explanation, if not now maybe tomorrow, is surprising.

This Cosmos seems to have no truly inaccessible secrets.
It is willing to be known...

Why is there no Chaos instead?
What infinitesimal probability does the Cosmos have of being there instead of Chaos?

This life is truly a miracle.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 11:54 am

bobmax wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:45 pm The fact that everything that happens has a cause and that this can have an explanation, if not now maybe tomorrow, is surprising.

This Cosmos seems to have no truly inaccessible secrets.
It is willing to be known...

Why is there no Chaos instead?
What infinitesimal probability does the Cosmos have of being there instead of Chaos?

This life is truly a miracle.

Your usage of 'miracle' is sloppy but I see that general picture of Chaos versus Cosmos like you do.I wish Nick, and others could see that God is Cosmos and that Cosmos is good.

Some kill to establish superiority as in might makes right. It is what justifies genocides

...absolutely! Put another way - more in Nick's context - why not respect the life force which is as much in other creature as it is in ours if not threatened by it. Snakes are actually extremely valuable creatures in keeping rodents under control. Every farmer knows that! Only the upright rodent would seek to exterminate them without knowing what they're doing! If we were aware of how closely we resemble rat thinking, it would make us extremely uncomfortable realizing that in a number of ways we're really not all that different. It's said that familiarity breeds contempt.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:12 pm Not sure how we jumped from Harbal not killin' a snake to all that.