Philosophy Now Forum

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:26 pm

What that will mean is that some solution will be imposed by the real power-brokers, and they won't have to care a fig for what Zelensky thinks.

Ukraine was being excluded from the get go. It was going to be Trump and Putin making a deal, carving up the world as great men do.

Who cares about these little powerless countries?

He's just about cut himself completely out of any negotiations that are going to happen, and made it impossible for the US to include him.

If Trump is this genius deal maker, then he ought to understand that both Ukraine and Russia need to get something from "the deal".

And if he's a statesman then he can swallow his ego and bring both sides to the table.

IC is a Russian shill, no idea what he's getting out of this. Probably nothing.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 4:52 am A short primer on the history of the Ukraine issue, by a former Democrat star:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNC3N93YYNE

No formal agreement was ever made that NATO wouldn't be expanded East after the collapse of the USSR. And these narratives always leave out the core issue: those post-Soviet countries are in the range of the Russian nukes too, and there was never a sign either in the last 3 and a
half decades that Russia was becoming a civilized, non-hostile country, so the threat of being overrun or nuked by Russia is always hanging above these countries. Of course the current situtation is ultimately Russia's fault (to the larger degree).

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:04 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:56 pm But let's say that Russia attacks again. Would Trump put up a fight to protect these companies in Ukraine?

More likely than if the US had no stake at all in Ukraine.

You may be trying to figure out the future too far before it happens.

What's clear is this: the war needs to stop, so Ukrainians and Russians stop dying. Then some sort of arrangement needs to be worked out, diplomatically. But the first step is a ceasefire. And why Zelensky doesn't want one...well, you'll have to guess. But a lot of money from the US has disappeared...anybody can do the math.

LOL ONCE AGAIN 'this one' is PUTTING money AHEAD OF, and OVER, human beings, and lives.

And, if the people of "russia" just STOPPED ATTACKING, then THE WAR would just END, and OBVIOUSLY human lives would ALSO just STOP being TAKEN.

BUT, the people of "russia" only started the ATTACK, and thus THE WAR, BECAUSE OF the CONTINUE ADVANCEMENT OF the so-called "west", "europe" and "united states of america" alike. So, if "the west" just STOPPED ADVANCING, and just REMAINED in their OWN are or territory, then THIS WAR would NOT have EVEN BEGUN. And, SO ALL of those TAKEN lives would NOT have EVEN HAPPENED and OCCURRED.

HOWEVER, the people OF the."europe" and "united states of america" BELIEVE that they have NOT done ABSOLUTELY ANY thing Wrong, here. So, 'this war' WILL CONTINUE, and may well CONTINUE TO GROW and even GET UNBELIEVABLY BIGGER.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:07 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:56 pm But let's say that Russia attacks again.

My understanding, correct me if I'm am wrong, is that outside of its own sphere Russia does not have much interest in the expansive policy of invading countries to the West. I cannot see what they would gain from it. My understanding is that the machinations carried out by the US precipitated the war. Is that a wrong view? I am not certain. But I have heard it a lot. And by sensible analysts.

As far as i am AWARE the people of "russia" are just WANTING TO GET BACK 'that' what WAS ONCE just A part of the "soviet union" PREVIOUSLY .

As above, if "europe" and/or the "united states of america" had just STOPPED their CONTINUED MOVEMENT, and ADVANCEMENTS, then 'this war' would have NEVER EVEN BEGUN, and if ANY one KNOWS of ANY PROOF that the people of "russia" would even WANT to TAKE ANY thing MORE than just GET "ukraine" BACK, then PLEASE PROVIDE it, here.

"donald trump" TRY TO GET the 'right' to the 'monetary wealth' of the minerals IN "ukraine territories", UNDER some BEHIND CKISED DOORS DEAL, WITH "russia" ALONE, WHILE ATTEMPTING TO GUILT TRIP, RIDICULE, and HUMILIATE the "leader" of "ukraine" IN FRONT OF
'the pubic' AT A PUBLICIZED EVENT, and NOT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS like with people of "russia", is just A STRATEGY OF "donald trump' and it's ilk.

"donald trump" just WANTS TO TAKE MORE and MORE land, and have MORE and MORE CONTROL and POWER OVER NORE and MORE land, just so it can OBTAIN MORE and MORE money. And, all UNDER the ABSOLUTE FAULTY and COMPLETELY DELUSION REASONING that since 'your land' HAS BEEN ATTACKED, and IS now' BOMBED and DESTROYED 'you SHOULD JUST HAND 'it' OVER TO me', the "leader" OF the VERY LAUGHINGLY called 'free world'.

The AMOUNT OF DECEPTIONS, and DELUSIONS, here, would be UNBELIEVABLE, IF they were NOT all, HERE, TO BE LOOKED AT, and SEEN.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:31 pm

The last time a foreign power came through Ukraine into Russia, it was Hitler. And as a result, Russia very nearly fell at Stalingrad, and one in seven Russians was killed in the ensuing war. If Russians are a tiny bit paranoid about foreign powers settling into Ukraine, it does make some sense, historically speaking. One doesn't have to agree with what they're doing now to see why they might think they have to do it. So recognizing the history would go some way toward allaying Russian anxieties, perhaps.

Let's not forget that the Soviet Union and Germany agreed to carve up the world.

And it all would have worked out wonderfully ... except that you can't trust a tyrannical, invading murderer.

Hitler could not be trusted. Putin cannot be trusted.

CAN "donald trump" BE TRUSTED?

If yes, then WHY, EXACTLY?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:55 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:31 pm

The last time a foreign power came through Ukraine into Russia, it was Hitler. And as a result, Russia very nearly fell at Stalingrad, and one in seven Russians was killed in the ensuing war. If Russians are a tiny bit paranoid about foreign powers settling into Ukraine, it does make some sense, historically speaking. One doesn't have to agree with what they're doing now to see why they might think they have to do it. So recognizing the history would go some way toward allaying Russian anxieties, perhaps.

Let's not forget that the Soviet Union and Germany agreed to carve up the world.

Absolutely. Stalin and Hitler were both nasty dudes. But the average Russian paid the price for their hubris, just as Ukraine is now paying for Zelensky's.

LOL
LOL
LOL

"volodymyr zelenskyy" is 'now' ONE OF the so-called 'bad people' FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, OTHER THAN JUST ONE SET UP VIDEOED and RECORDE MEETING.

If ANY one can REALLY NOT SEE the ABSOLUTE TRAP that "volodymyr zelenskyy" was LURED INTO, and SET UPON, then 'that one' IS FURTHER PROOF OF just HOW EASILY and SIMPLY, SOME people REALLY CAN BE MANIPULATED, FOOLED, TRICKED, AND DECEIVED.

LURING people IN UNDER the False PRETENSE OF 'we have A DEAL for you', which ACTUALLY DOES NOT BENEFIT them, IS some thing that would be BEST DISCOURAGED, ABSOLUTELY, INSTEAD of being APPLAUDED and ENCOURAGED, BY, OBVIOUSLY, those who WOULD BENEFIT, and/or who ARE VERY EASILY FOOLED, and DECEIVED

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:55 pm

Hitler could not be trusted. Putin cannot be trusted.

That's plausibly true, although, of course, one cannot deduce from the former to the latter. But why should one trust any politican? What's the evidence that Zelensky, who shuts down the democratic process in his own country, and persecutes religion, and 'disappears' billions of US dollars is some kind of trustworthy character?

Isn't it quite possible that what we have there is a basket of skunks?

LOOKING, and SEEING, FROM ONE perspective, ONLY, as "immanuel can" CONTINUALLY SHOWS, and PROVES, it DOES, IS NOT the SMARTEST, NOR WISEST, thing TO DO, in Life.

In Fact TO LOOK AT, and SEE, things FROM "one side", or FROM ONE perspective, ONLY, IS WHY 'these human created WARS' even START, and BEGIN.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:36 pm Trump is not offering peace.

I want a ceasefire and an immediate end to the carnage.
The rest, aka "peace", can be discussed around the negotiation table.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:12 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 7:54 pm

Honestly, I see zero evidence of that. You might be anxious that that's what's going to happen, but talks with Putin have not even begun, so far as anybody knows, so it doesn't make any sense to fear it now. And the US president claims he's interested in America's interests, not those of Russia or Ukraine. I think that's likely the case. Why would he do otherwise?

Trump claims that he has talked to Putin many times since he got elected and since he took office.

But we don't know anything about that, good or bad. What we do know is Zelensky just piddled the bed, right in front of the cameras. He's just about cut himself completely out of any negotiations that are going to happen, and made it impossible for the US to include him. He's unlikely to retract or apologize, and essentially, he's convinced everybody he's opposed to any ceasefire. Then he dared the president to back him down or kick him to the curb...which, of course, he promptly did. Zelensky's irrelevant now. He's made himself that way.

What that will mean is that some solution will be imposed by the real power-brokers, and they won't have to care a fig for what Zelensky thinks.

"immanuel can" you could not come across as more of an absolute BLIND "one sided" FOOL, here,

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:14 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:36 pm Trump is not offering peace.

Trump is offering Russia an opportunity to rebuilt it's stockpile of weapons and to attack with greater force in the future.

Without guarantees from America and the EU to come to Ukraine's aid in case of a future Russian attack, signing onto a Trump peace plan are suicide for Ukraine. Ukraine would be swallowed up slowly or quickly.

Putin is not the trustworthy good guy. Americans understand that and they care. Trump and his yes men/women apparently don't understand or don't care.

You ask what if Russia attacks again after making peace with Ukraine. What if Ukraine doesn't accept a peace deal or at least a cease fire and then something happens and Russia gains the upper hand, perhaps even to the point of victory? Then what? Maybe we should make peace while we can and while we have a leg to stand on.

WHY would 'the One' BEING ATTACKED HAVE TO make a 'peace deal', OR a 'cease fire'. If the "attackers" just STOPPED ATTACKING, then there would ONLY BE PEACE, and, literally, to BEGIN WITH.

What COULD the one BEING ATTACKED possibly even sign IN A so-called 'peace deal', OTHER THAN the HANDING OVER what they clas AS 'their land'?

Also, WHY EVEN WOULD they WANT TO SIGN OVER 'the minerals', IN their land', TO A COMPLETE OTHER 'entity'?

If people ON 'their OWN lands' are GETTING ATTACKED and MURDERED, the. it WOULD BE what IS Right, and GOOD, TO HELP, and SUPPORT, 'those people', would it NOT?

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 5:58 am No formal agreement was ever made that NATO wouldn't be expanded East after the collapse of the USSR. And these narratives always leave out the core issue: those post-Soviet countries are in the range of the Russian nukes too, and there was never a sign either in the last 3 and a
half decades that Russia was becoming a civilized, non-hostile country, so the threat of being overrun or nuked by Russia is always hanging above these countries. Of course the current situtation is ultimately Russia's fault (to the larger degree).

This goes back further of course, apparently the Russians have this psychosis that the countries they occupied at the end of WW2 and then forced to work for them at gunpoint as parts of the USSR, are therefore from then on their friends and also somehow permanently belong to them.

You can even hear this narrative from some non-Russians sometimes, when they talk about a Russian sphere of influence in Europe. What the FUCK are they talking about?

Also, why didn't the US occupy Western Europe, and instead gave them freedom and built an actual alliance with them? Why doesn't it permanently occupy parts of other countries now either? That's the difference. And now Russia is openly threathening to nuke the NATO countries, another thing the US wouldn't do.

Most of what is happening to Russia, Russia did to itself, and when it starts to play the vicitm, some people are actually falling for it?

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:26 pm

What that will mean is that some solution will be imposed by the real power-brokers, and they won't have to care a fig for what Zelensky thinks.

Ukraine was being excluded from the get go. It was going to be Trump and Putin making a deal, carving up the world as great men do.

Who cares about these little powerless countries?

He's just about cut himself completely out of any negotiations that are going to happen, and made it impossible for the US to include him.

If Trump is this genius deal maker, then he ought to understand that both Ukraine and Russia need to get something from "the deal".

And if he's a statesman then he can swallow his ego and bring both sides to the table.

"donald trump' ONLY LOOKS AT, and DOES, 'deals', which it could benefit FROM, like ALL Truly GREEDY and SELFISH human beings DO.

"donald trump' has ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST IN ANY one ELSE, here, and is just PICKING ON 'the One' in the, OBVIOUSLY, WEAKEST position, here.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:26 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:14 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:36 pm Trump is not offering peace.

Trump is offering Russia an opportunity to rebuilt it's stockpile of weapons and to attack with greater force in the future.

Without guarantees from America and the EU to come to Ukraine's aid in case of a future Russian attack, signing onto a Trump peace plan are suicide for Ukraine. Ukraine would be swallowed up slowly or quickly.

Putin is not the trustworthy good guy. Americans understand that and they care. Trump and his yes men/women apparently don't understand or don't care.

You ask what if Russia attacks again after making peace with Ukraine. What if Ukraine doesn't accept a peace deal or at least a cease fire and then something happens and Russia gains the upper hand, perhaps even to the point of victory? Then what? Maybe we should make peace while we can and while we have a leg to stand on.

Good point. If the Ukraine is not backed by the US, then Russia will take it, for sure...all of it.

LOL Did you ONLY JUST REALIZE this?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:26 pm This makes it all the more ridiculous for Zelensky to be alienating the only hope he has.

BUT, "volodymyr zelenskyy" HAS NEVER 'alienated' ANY thing, here. "donald trump", and its FOLLOWER, COMBINED TOGETHER TO 'alienate' the, ONLY, 'one, other', and together they BOTH FOOLED, TRICKED, and DECEIVED the BLIND and DEAF.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:26 pm His theatrics may suit his bloated ego, but he's toothless. He's got nothing to offer the process, and he's made that abundantly clear by refusing even the idea of a ceasefire, which is the automatic first step to a diplomatic solution.

What he probably wants is for the massive money-laundry started by the Dems in Ukraine to keep flowing, and flowing through him. If he cares about anything else, it sure isn't apparent.

AGAIN, the BLIND, and DEAF, ARE SO EASILY AND SO SIMPLY FOOLED AND DECEIVED

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:28 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:26 pm Ukraine was being excluded from the get go. It was going to be Trump and Putin making a deal, carving up the world as great men do.

If that had been the truth, then why invite Zelensky into the White House at all? There was nothing to be gained.

WHY 'that one' was 'invited', or LURED, IN TO that 'white house' was so that 'the two' COULD DO, what they DID DO, and what they HAD PLANNED TO DO, TO 'that one'.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 8:28 pm

He's just about cut himself completely out of any negotiations that are going to happen, and made it impossible for the US to include him.

If Trump is this genius deal maker, then he ought to understand that both Ukraine and Russia need to get something from "the deal".

But if the goal is, as Trump said, to stop the killing, and one of the participants refuses even a ceasefire, then that participant isn't participating in the peace process, and becomes completely disposable. That's what Zelensky has done to himself.

LOL
LOL
LOL

you are BEING ABSOLUTELY CLOSED, and STUPID, here, "immanuel can".

The GOAL FOR "donald trump", here, has NEVER BEEN, and IS NOT, TO STOP 'the KILLINGS'. INSTEAD, the GOAL FOR "donald trump" IS TO OBTAIN, and/or KEEP, MORE money.

.And, TELL 'us' "immanuel can" HOW, EXACTLY, DOES 'the One' who IS BEING ATTACKED COULD participate in a peace process, OTHER THAN just GIVING UP?

OBVIOUSLY, IF, and WHEN, the ATTACKERS STOPPED ATTACKING, then this IS WHEN the 'peace process' IS ACTUALLY BEING PARTICIPATED IN, EXACTLY.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 5:58 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 4:52 am A short primer on the history of the Ukraine issue, by a former Democrat star:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNC3N93YYNE

No formal agreement was ever made that NATO wouldn't be expanded East after the collapse of the USSR.

RFK says there was this mutual understanding. The memoranda issued between the parties say there was. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early. Headline: "Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner" (Documents provided below.)

You say there wasn't. Or that it wasn't "formal" enough.

Seems pretty formal. The attempt was certainly made to convince the USSR that their security would not be eroded. Somebody was playing false, alright.

Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

A sovereign country can make any alliances and join any organization that it wants.

It's not up to Putin/Russia to make those decisions for Ukraine or any other country.