Trump is not offering peace in Ukraine

[phyllo]

What that will mean is that some solution will be imposed by the real power-brokers, and they won't have to care a fig for what Zelensky thinks.

Ukraine was being excluded from the get go. It was going to be Trump and Putin making a deal, carving up the world as great men do.

Who cares about these little powerless countries?

He's just about cut himself completely out of any negotiations that are going to happen, and made it impossible for the US to include him.

If Trump is this genius deal maker, then he ought to understand that both Ukraine and Russia need to get something from "the deal".

And if he's a statesman then he can swallow his ego and bring both sides to the table.

[Immanuel Can]

Trump is not offering peace.

Trump is offering Russia an opportunity to rebuilt it's stockpile of weapons and to attack with greater force in the future.

Without guarantees from America and the EU to come to Ukraine's aid in case of a future Russian attack, signing onto a Trump peace plan are suicide for Ukraine. Ukraine would be swallowed up slowly or quickly.

Putin is not the trustworthy good guy. Americans understand that and they care. Trump and his yes men/women apparently don't understand or don't care.

You ask what if Russia attacks again after making peace with Ukraine. What if Ukraine doesn't accept a peace deal or at least a cease fire and then something happens and Russia gains the upper hand, perhaps even to the point of victory? Then what? Maybe we should make peace while we can and while we have a leg to stand on.

Good point. If the Ukraine is not backed by the US, then Russia will take it, for sure...all of it. This makes it all the more ridiculous for Zelensky to be alienating the only hope he has. His theatrics may suit his bloated ego, but he's toothless. He's got nothing to offer the process, and he's made that abundantly clear by refusing even the idea of a ceasefire, which is the automatic first step to a diplomatic solution.

What he probably wants is for the massive money-laundry started by the Dems in Ukraine to keep flowing, and flowing through him. If he cares about anything else, it sure isn't apparent.

[Immanuel Can]

Ukraine was being excluded from the get go. It was going to be Trump and Putin making a deal, carving up the world as great men do.

If that had been the truth, then why invite Zelensky into the White House at all? There was nothing to be gained.

He's just about cut himself completely out of any negotiations that are going to happen, and made it impossible for the US to include him.

If Trump is this genius deal maker, then he ought to understand that both Ukraine and Russia need to get something from "the deal".

But if the goal is, as Trump said, to stop the killing, and one of the participants refuses even a ceasefire, then that participant isn't participating in the peace process, and becomes completely disposable. That's what Zelensky has done to himself.

[phyllo]

You ask what if Russia attacks again after making peace with Ukraine. What if Ukraine doesn't accept a peace deal or at least a cease fire and then something happens and Russia gains the upper hand, perhaps even to the point of victory? Then what? Maybe we should make peace while we can and while we have a leg to stand on

You don't think the Ukrainians have thought about this?

You don't think they know what's at stake?

They could have surrendered on any day in the last three years.

[phyllo]

If that had been the truth, then why invite Zelensky into the White House at all? There was nothing to be gained.

To get some cheap mining contracts for Trump's billionaire buddies?

Just like Trump Gaza is an opportunity to make money.

[Gary Childress]

They could have surrendered on any day in the last three years.

Russia is too strong for Ukraine to handle alone. Should the West step in and tip the balance? Then what happens? World war III? Does Russia convince China to ally with it? Maybe we need to be realistic. Things can get much worse.

I say make peace. Try to ensure Ukraine's safety as much as possible but make peace so that the world can go on. I don't think flirting with WW3 is anything but the greatest mistake that human beings can possibly make.

[phyllo]

They could have surrendered on any day in the last three years.

Russia is too strong for Ukraine to handle alone. Should the West step in and tip the balance? Then what happens? World war III? Does Russia convince China to ally with it? Maybe we need to be realistic. Things can get much worse.

I say make peace. Try to ensure Ukraine's safety as much as possible but make peace so that the world can go on. I don't think flirting with WW3 is anything but the greatest mistake that human beings can possibly make.

They use your fear of WW3 to manipulate you.

They want you to surrender, to give away your morals, your humanity, your decency and to submit to their will.

[Gary Childress]

They could have surrendered on any day in the last three years.

Russia is too strong for Ukraine to handle alone. Should the West step in and tip the balance? Then what happens? World war III? Does Russia convince China to ally with it? Maybe we need to be realistic. Things can get much worse.

I say make peace. Try to ensure Ukraine's safety as much as possible but make peace so that the world can go on. I don't think flirting with WW3 is anything but the greatest mistake that human beings can possibly make.

They use your fear of WW3 to manipulate you.

They want you to surrender, to give away your morals, your humanity, your decency and to submit to their will.

So I guess the game is, who wants to be the one responsible for tipping the balance in this conversation and take responsibility for the results. I'm for making peace. And if Trump has one thing right, then I think it is that we should be pursuing peace. If others don't want that right now, then fine. I'm a nobody. I don't know shit. Maybe we should keep at it. Take it away. Keep fighting. See where that gets us all.

[phyllo]

So I guess the game is, who wants to be the one responsible for tipping the balance in this conversation. I'm for making peace. And if Trump has one thing right, then I think it is that we should be pursuing peace. If others don't want peace, then fine. I'm a nobody. I don't know shit. Take it away. Keep fighting. See where that gets us all.

This isn't a binary peace or no peace situation.

The quality of peace is important, the circumstances of the peace ... how people feel about it, what they think they get or lose from the peace.

You can have peace which is slavery, peace which is empowering, peace which is frustrating, peace which produces resentment, peace which brings prosperity ... There is complexity in peace.

And please stop beating yourself up all the time. Your opinions may be freely expressed. And should be.

[Immanuel Can]

If that had been the truth, then why invite Zelensky into the White House at all? There was nothing to be gained.

To get some cheap mining contracts for Trump's billionaire buddies?

Well, let's see your evidence for that.

[phyllo]

If that had been the truth, then why invite Zelensky into the White House at all? There was nothing to be gained.

To get some cheap mining contracts for Trump's billionaire buddies?

Well, let's see your evidence for that.

You asked a question and I gave you my take on it.

Everything seems to be a business deal for Trump. Getting mining rights for his buddies would be a great business deal.

It's all about the money, isn't it. And bragging rights.

Zelenskyy certainly was not being invited to be an equal participant in the peace negotiations.

[Alexis Jacobi]

And if Trump has one thing right, then I think it is that we should be pursuing peace. If others don't want that right now, then fine. I'm a nobody. I don't know shit. Maybe we should keep at it. Take it away. Keep fighting. See where that gets us all.

Trump pursues peace because what they (the US) had planned for Ukraine has not worked. Ukraine will lose. The US actually has no other good options but to 1) negotiate a settlement, 2) take advantage of exploitation of minerals (and other things) and 3) find a way to begin to do business with Russia.

The analysts I have read say it was a super bad idea to push Russia into the Chinese orbit.

Notice, Gary, how all your recommendations stem from your sentimental self? People in this business don’t and can’t make decisions based out of their feelings. It is a question of strategic interests and how statecraft achieves the best ends.

It would seem that recently American statecraft has been of a low order. And having provoked Russia to attack Ukraine was just one more strategic blunder.

Trump may well commit a whole other series of stupidities, but that remains to be seen.

[phyllo]

Normalizing relations and removing sanctions would be part of the peace negotiations.

[Immanuel Can]

To get some cheap mining contracts for Trump's billionaire buddies?

Well, let's see your evidence for that.

You asked a question and I gave you my take on it.

Oh. So...no evidence, just an opinion?

Zelenskyy certainly was not being invited to be an equal participant in the peace negotiations.

I'm not sure whether or not that's true. But if so, why should he be? He's no longer the elected representative of Ukraine: he shut down their elections. He's now an autocrat.

[Gary Childress]

And if Trump has one thing right, then I think it is that we should be pursuing peace. If others don't want that right now, then fine. I'm a nobody. I don't know shit. Maybe we should keep at it. Take it away. Keep fighting. See where that gets us all.

Trump pursues peace because what they (the US) had planned for Ukraine has not worked. Ukraine will lose. The US actually has no other good options but to 1) negotiate a settlement, 2) take advantage of exploitation of minerals (and other things) and 3) find a way to begin to do business with Russia.

The analysts I have read say it was a super bad idea to push Russia into the Chinese orbit.

Notice, Gary, how all your recommendations stem from your sentimental self? People in this business don’t and can’t make decisions based out of their feelings. It is a question of strategic interests and how statecraft achieves the best ends.

It would seem that recently American statecraft has been of a low order. And having provoked Russia to attack Ukraine was just one more strategic blunder.

Trump may well commit a whole other series of stupidities, but that remains to be seen.

"Sentimentality" is mostly what I have to go on. I'm not an analyst or politician. I can only place my physical being into the fray and react as I would react (based on the information available) as though my own life depended upon peace. I am not an indifferent object looking in from the outside. People are not "statistics" to me.