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So now that you understand that determinism doesn't always have an end goal, but your use of the word "indeterminate" means "without an end goal", does that mean a deterministic system can be indeterminate?
No, with the knowledge that the process of adaptive evolution to that which is indeterminate means that neither determinism nor free will is possible.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 10:49 amSo now that you understand that determinism doesn't always have an end goal, but your use of the word "indeterminate" means "without an end goal", does that mean a deterministic system can be indeterminate?
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 1:47 pmSeems that way to me too [/quo
We have a major problem with semantics here. If indeterminism was used in another context, for example, what time is the train due? Would you understand it if a local told you the time is indeterminate, would you know there is no specific time for the train to arrive? All words are qualification and/or limitations. No, the concept is not unrelated, it negates both free will and determinism. This is an entirely relative world, meaning being is cause to all other beings, and their reactions are then cause to their outer world.
There is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction
Determined and indeterminacy are opposites, as is light and darkness, one negates the other.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:46 pmThere is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction
Well then I guess you better let go of the idea that indeterminate means "without a goal" then, because deterministic systems can be without goals.popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:59 pmDetermined and indeterminacy are opposites, as is light and darkness, one negates the other.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:46 pmThere is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction
That is an oxymoron.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 9:16 pmWell then I guess you better let go of the idea that indeterminate means "without a goal" then, because deterministic systems can be without goals.popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:59 pmDetermined and indeterminacy are opposites, as is light and darkness, one negates the other.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:46 pm
There is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction
On the other hand, those who do hold us responsible may well have been compelled to do so themselves. Still, who among us is capable of confirming or falsifying it one way or the other?Yes. We can be held responsible for our choices even if our choices are determined by our past.
Yes, but the overwhelming preponderance of animals accomplish this almost entirely through instinct. Movements and mechanisms revolving around biological imperatives.Generally, existing living organisms have been shaped by evolution to have traits that enable them to survive and reproduce. The ability to move themselves is one of the advantageous traits possessed by most animals. In order for an animal’s ability to move to be used to increase its likelihood of survival and/or reproduction, the animal needs to have mechanisms that control their movement in a way that improves the animal’s likelihood of survival and/or reproduction.
Indeterminate has always meant without a goal. I am folding here.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 9:16 pmWell then I guess you better let go of the idea that indeterminate means "without a goal" then, because deterministic systems can be without goals.popeye1945 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:59 pmDetermined and indeterminacy are opposites, as is light and darkness, one negates the other.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:46 pm
There is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction
But determinism has never meant "with a goal", so treating them like they're opposites is silly.popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 13, 2025 4:01 am Indeterminate has always meant without a goal. I am folding here.
https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=2339&q ... A1&PC=ACTSFlannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 13, 2025 4:26 amBut determinism has never meant "with a goal", so treating them like they're opposites is silly.popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 13, 2025 4:01 am Indeterminate has always meant without a goal. I am folding here.
If something is inevitable, it is determined. That which is indeterminate is not inevitable is not determined,popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 13, 2025 6:15 pmhttps://www.bing.com/search?pglt=2339&q ... A1&PC=ACTSFlannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 13, 2025 4:26 amBut determinism has never meant "with a goal", so treating them like they're opposites is silly.popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 13, 2025 4:01 am Indeterminate has always meant without a goal. I am folding here.
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 13, 2025 6:20 pmIf something is inevitable, it is determined. That which is indeterminate is not inevitable. Okay, I think I see where the confusion is. Of course, to say that the determined has a goal would be anthropomorphic or attributing human qualities to a mindless process. Something that is determined/inevitable is the result of a predictable process. What is unavoidable is that the past determines the future, inevitable is the certainty that the past will dictate the future.popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 13, 2025 6:15 pmhttps://www.bing.com/search?pglt=2339&q ... A1&PC=ACTSFlannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 13, 2025 4:26 am
But determinism has never meant "with a goal", so treating them like they're opposites is silly.