compatibilism

[Flannel Jesus]

So now that you understand that determinism doesn't always have an end goal, but your use of the word "indeterminate" means "without an end goal", does that mean a deterministic system can be indeterminate?

[popeye1945]

So now that you understand that determinism doesn't always have an end goal, but your use of the word "indeterminate" means "without an end goal", does that mean a deterministic system can be indeterminate?

No, with the knowledge that the process of adaptive evolution to that which is indeterminate means that neither determinism nor free will is possible.
It is not something people would be comfortable with, but I believe it is reality. The cosmos has no goal and neither does the earth. Organisms through mindless process are adapting to the indeterminate nature of the earth, which in turn is adapting to the indeterminate nature of the cosmos. I can understand your difficulty; it is not a common understanding.

[phyllo]

Determinism doesn't require an "end goal". Neither does free-will.

So you're just introducing a concept which is unrelated to determinism and free-will.

[Flannel Jesus]

Determinism doesn't require an "end goal". Neither does free-will.

So you're just introducing a concept which is unrelated to determinism and free-will.

Seems that way to me too

[popeye1945]

Determinism doesn't require an "end goal". Neither does free-will.

So you're just introducing a concept which is unrelated to determinism and free-will.

Seems that way to me too [/quo

We have a major problem with semantics here. If indeterminism was used in another context, for example, what time is the train due? Would you understand it if a local told you the time is indeterminate, would you know there is no specific time for the train to arrive? All words are qualification and/or limitations. No, the concept is not unrelated, it negates both free will and determinism. This is an entirely relative world, meaning being is cause to all other beings, and their reactions are then cause to their outer world.

[Flannel Jesus]

There is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction

[popeye1945]

There is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction

Determined and indeterminacy are opposites, as is light and darkness, one negates the other.

[Flannel Jesus]

There is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction

Determined and indeterminacy are opposites, as is light and darkness, one negates the other.

Well then I guess you better let go of the idea that indeterminate means "without a goal" then, because deterministic systems can be without goals.

[popeye1945]

There is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction

Determined and indeterminacy are opposites, as is light and darkness, one negates the other.

Well then I guess you better let go of the idea that indeterminate means "without a goal" then, because deterministic systems can be without goals.

That is an oxymoron.

[iambiguous]

If determinism is true, then can we hold people morally responsible for their actions?
Bryer Sophia-Gardener (William Johnson)
at quora

Yes. We can be held responsible for our choices even if our choices are determined by our past.

On the other hand, those who do hold us responsible may well have been compelled to do so themselves. Still, who among us is capable of confirming or falsifying it one way or the other?

Generally, existing living organisms have been shaped by evolution to have traits that enable them to survive and reproduce. The ability to move themselves is one of the advantageous traits possessed by most animals. In order for an animal’s ability to move to be used to increase its likelihood of survival and/or reproduction, the animal needs to have mechanisms that control their movement in a way that improves the animal’s likelihood of survival and/or reproduction.

Yes, but the overwhelming preponderance of animals accomplish this almost entirely through instinct. Movements and mechanisms revolving around biological imperatives.

Homo sapiens come into the world equally propelled by the "reptilian brain". But the sapiens part is latin for "wise". We are the only creatures on Earth with brains capable of inventing philosophy:

"Philosophy is a combination of two Greek words, philein sophia, meaning 'lover of wisdom'".

Even in regard to the great apes and other animals that have evolved brains capable of many accomplishments, few would use the word wise to describe them.

Also, the only animal capable of inventing computer technology and smart phones and the internet.

In fact, it's the enormous gap between human beings and all other living things that prompt some to invent the Gods or a God, the God to explain us. Or those who insist that it's only a matter of time before science comes up with their own one size fits all theory of everything.

Then those here who seem content to sustain the discussions in worlds of words. Dueling definitions and deductions. They've managed to convince themselves that "here and now" what they believe "in their head" really does reflect the objective -- metaphysical? -- truth.

[popeye1945]

There is a huge semantic problem. You previously indicated that you think indeterminate means without a goal. Well, deterministic systems don't have to have goals, but you didn't confirm that that means those deterministic systems are indeterminate. So the semantic problem as far as I see it is, you have a unique and inconsistent way of viewing these words, rather than using them the way everyone else uses them. That will always result in friction

Determined and indeterminacy are opposites, as is light and darkness, one negates the other.

Well then I guess you better let go of the idea that indeterminate means "without a goal" then, because deterministic systems can be without goals.

Indeterminate has always meant without a goal. I am folding here.

[Flannel Jesus]

Indeterminate has always meant without a goal. I am folding here.

But determinism has never meant "with a goal", so treating them like they're opposites is silly.

[popeye1945]

Indeterminate has always meant without a goal. I am folding here.

But determinism has never meant "with a goal", so treating them like they're opposites is silly.

https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=2339&q ... A1&PC=ACTS

[popeye1945]

Indeterminate has always meant without a goal. I am folding here.

But determinism has never meant "with a goal", so treating them like they're opposites is silly.

https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=2339&q ... A1&PC=ACTS

If something is inevitable, it is determined. That which is indeterminate is not inevitable is not determined,

[popeye1945]

But determinism has never meant "with a goal", so treating them like they're opposites is silly.

https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=2339&q ... A1&PC=ACTS

If something is inevitable, it is determined. That which is indeterminate is not inevitable. Okay, I think I see where the confusion is. Of course, to say that the determined has a goal would be anthropomorphic or attributing human qualities to a mindless process. Something that is determined/inevitable is the result of a predictable process. What is unavoidable is that the past determines the future, inevitable is the certainty that the past will dictate the future.