Philosophy Now Forum

Here the statement was made that there is nothing at all immoral or unethical in sending refugees back.
To understand this opinion, therefore, expel millions of refugees from Europe, it's not at all immoral or unethical?

Janoah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 8:02 pm Here the statement was made that there is nothing at all immoral or unethical in sending refugees back.

To understand this opinion, therefore, expel millions of refugees from Europe, it's not at all immoral or unethical?

Most of the refugees now in Europe were invited to immigrate, weren’t they? Germany, Sweden, Denmark etc.

Millions of refugees entering Pakistan or Iran were not invited. They likely came as a result of duress (the war). Or for economic reasons. But it is quite proper to send them back. And it is not immoral or unethical to do so.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:03 am

seeds wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 8:14 pm
However, I'm sure that Walker can come up with a beautiful and deeply spiritual quote from Nisargadatta that has led him (Walker) to believe that it was perfectly okay for a western-backed Jewish army to violently expel the Palestinians from their homes and lands and imprison them in a concentration camp.
_______

No need for Nissy....

...Sorry seeds, you're not a rare one who prefers honesty but rather typical of apologists for what Hamas did.

Let's see. Let's further simplify. Hamas says, kill all Jews. Israel says, no.

That's about it. The rest of what's happening is based on that and the Hamas tactic of hiding behind the population they should be protecting.

My goodness, this is all becoming such a typical example of how we like to transform the various monikers used by certain groups into "boogeyman" names for the humans we wish to demonize, such as "Hamas" or "Hezbollah" or how about the "Mujahideen."

Anyway, first of all, I'm not an apologist for what Hamas did.

No, I'm an apologist for God and for why God needed to set a general limit to human consciousness in order for our temporary existence within this universe (within God's "womb") to seem real, and logical, and natural to us, when, in truth,...

...it is a wonderfully ordered ("dream-like") illusion created out of the living fabric of God's own mind - all for the purpose of awakening her very own offspring (us) into existence.

Unfortunately, one of the negative consequences of our attenuated level of consciousness is that it prevents us from seeing the sameness of our inner being...

(I.e., the sameness of form and purpose of our eternal souls)

...along with obscuring the fact that we are all equal family members of the highest species of being in all of reality (the same species as God).

The point is that our purposely limited level of consciousness is basically what is responsible for our evil treatment of each other.

However, fear not, for our misapprehension of reality is nothing more than a temporary situation that will be remedied upon the event of the second and final birth of our souls into true reality.

Indeed, it is then when we will literally awaken from our present "semi-conscious" (fetal-like) state of being, and into our "fully conscious" (fully born) state of being of that which constitutes our true and eternal form (again, the exact same form as God).

And secondly, Walker,...

..."Nissy" called, and he wants you to stop using his quotes to support your feigned air of enlightenment.

Indeed, he especially wants you to stop using his alleged teaching scenarios such as this...

Question: Nevertheless, you are aware of the immense suffering of the world?

SNM: Of course I am, much more than you are.

Question: Then what do you do?

SNM: I look at it through the eyes of God and find that all is well.

...because it is obvious that you haven't the slightest clue as to what that last line means.

As I implied at the top of this post, all humans are sleepwalking through life (with some "walkers" functioning at a deeper level of somnambulism than others).

And until you are able to rise above the fray and extricate yourself from the powerful emotions that accompany what we are talking about and thus try to view the circumstances transpiring on earth from this elevated perspective...



...or even better, from this perspective...



...you will never understand how "all is well"...

(as in operating according to design)

...when viewed through the eyes of God.
_______

seeds:



...or even better, from this perspective...



K: ok, I am a fan of ''where's waldo'' and so let us play that game now...
but instead of finding ''waldo'' let us find god..... where's god
in these two great photo's.....

and in the second picture, where is earth and Human beings?
in the midst of all these galaxies, where is the galaxy where
we live in? not even the planet, but which galaxy?
if you don't feel small in the second picture, you are just
not paying attention....

Kropotkin

Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:05 pm seeds:



...or even better, from this perspective...



K: ok, I am a fan of ''where's waldo'' and so let us play that game now...
but instead of finding ''waldo'' let us find god..... where's god
in these two great photo's.....

and in the second picture, where is earth and Human beings?
in the midst of all these galaxies, where is the galaxy where
we live in? not even the planet, but which galaxy?
if you don't feel small in the second picture, you are just
not paying attention....

Kropotkin

All of your questions can be answered if you click on the following link to my website and scroll down through the short series of illustrations I created many years ago...

...http://theultimateseeds.com/godvisitsth ... rician.htm
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How many millions more are invited to immigrate to Europe, maybe billions?

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:15 pm A detailed demographic analysis erases ‘Palestinian’ claims to Israel
By Andrea Widburg
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... srael.html

"If you read the post, the most important takeaway is that Palestine was not an Arab land; it was (and is) a Jewish and Christian land. Palestine was not an Arab land; it was (and is) a Jewish and Christian land."

I'm not sure what "Arab/Jewish/Christian land" means, but from the 13th century to 1947 the Muslims were the majority population in Palestine.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... e_(region)

The demographic situation changed enormously in 1948, when the state of Israel was established.

"How many people were living in the Holy Land in 1948? How many Jews, how many Palestinians? Let us look at the figures. On the eve of the foundation of the State of Israel,

* Around 600,000 Jews
* And almost 1.3 million Palestinians were living there.
…
Let us now look at the figures on the date of Israeli independence, which take into account flight and expulsion.
On 15 May 1948 (one day after independence), the State of Israel was home to

* Around 650,000 Jews
* And only 156,000 Palestinians.

A dramatic change had occurred as a result of dramatic developments. In other words, the Jewish state had become almost “free of Arabs”."

(Wolffsohn, Michael. Whose Holy Land? The Roots of the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs. Cham: Springer, 2021. p. 198)

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 2:30 pm What is an anti-Israel or anti-Zionist position?
Is that anything critical of Israeli actions?

No, anti-Israelism/anti-Zionism isn't the same as "anti-(current-)Israeli-governmentism". It is the view that there should be no such Jewish state as Israel, that Israel should be wiped off the map of Palestine, which is certainly different from the view that the politics of the Netanyahu government is bad.

Consul wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:19 am

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 02, 2023 2:30 pm What is an anti-Israel or anti-Zionist position?
Is that anything critical of Israeli actions?

No, anti-Israelism/anti-Zionism isn't the same as "anti-(current-)Israeli-governmentism". It is the view that there should be no such Jewish state as Israel, that Israel should be wiped off the map of Palestine, which is certainly different from the view that the politics of the Netanyahu government is bad.

I believe one could be anti-zionist without believe that Israel should be wiped off the map of Palestine. I suppose that depends on a few things, like what wiping it off entails. But it could simply mean that one thinks the way the state of Israel was set up was unjust and that this injustic continues and this continuation should have measures taken against it. Obviously any solution at this point is going to be very hard to arrive at making any side remotely pleased.

I certainly agree with your main point. One can be critical of the current Israeli government without being anti-semitic or antizionist or anti-israel.

And unfortunately some people, and some with rather good access to media want to conflate all those terms. And the same thing goes on in relation to Palestinians.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:23 am

Janoah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:12 am Has anyone heard of the UN condemning Hamas? Maybe the lust of malice prevails there too?

Looks like the Secretary-General of the UN condemned them.

This is the private opinion of the Secretary-General, but not a decision of the UN.
Or maybe I didn’t notice how the penguins flew and the UN condemned Hamas?

Janoah wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:51 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:23 am

Janoah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:12 am Has anyone heard of the UN condemning Hamas? Maybe the lust of malice prevails there too?

Looks like the Secretary-General of the UN condemned them.

This is the private opinion of the Secretary-General, but not a decision of the UN.
Or maybe I didn’t notice how the penguins flew and the UN condemned Hamas?

I don't know what to tell you then. Your government has killed almost 10 times as many Palestinians as the number of Israelis who died. The Bush administration killed many times more Iraqis and Afghanis than those of our own who died on 9/11. Are we supposed to be proud of those accomplishments?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:04 am Immanuel Can writes: If you'd read the Tanakh itself, you'd know that the prophets all foretold the consequences of breaking the covenant with YHWH. The covenant that made Israel the nation of the Lord has privileges, you see; but also sober responsibilities. One does not come without the other. You'd be surprised how specific the warnings God gave were, and how meticulously they've been fulfilled.

What the Rabbis say is that the Holocaust was a decision God made. In traditional Orthodox Jewish circles that is the interpretation of the Holocaust events. The punishment for disobedience of God's commands -- and remember that these all have to do with respecting and fulfilling the 613 mitzvoth and that these apply only within the Jewish community -- is that God will establish the idea in the minds of Gentiles that death-camps for your extermination must will be established.

Not just one or two, but thousands and millions will die at the indirectly manifest hand of Yahweh because you were disobedient. Many many millions died, and some in the most extreme ways, because of Jewish disobedience. If such a God existed and was defined then, such a God exists and is defined now. Therefore, the same thing could be repeated according to the mad logic. And God will stand behind it. Most Jews are not Torah-observant Jews. Therefore they must be punished.

Once you see into the sickness of these ideas, and once you begin to jettison them, some reasoned sort of clarity returns.

If you or anyone actually believes in a God that does these sorts of things, then you demonstrate that you believe in a psychopathic figure. But going further: that all normal and rational ethical and moral precepts, against such a backdrop, do not in fact exist. If God is immoral, then what does that say for our moral systems?

But here's the deal: No such God did no such thing. A priest-class devised these ideas and wrote and rewrote the religious texts so that they seemed to contain the warnings of history. Looked at in that way there is no larger scam in any religious structure that I am aware of, that can compare to the level of psychic manipulation that belief in Yahweh involves. If this is so then how we ultimately examine the religious structures of the Occident becomes a very good question.

Once one arrives at the point of seeing that one has imaged a psychopathic figure, but in no sense is the imagined figure real, but is really a psychological constellation within men themselves, at that point the entire structure falls to pieces. At that point one becomes free. By free I mean free to see that we are creating this, doing this, imposing these patterns of thought on reality. Not the other way around! Prior to that, and to the degree that one was captured by that god-concept, one is a slave of what could only be described as a demonic entity. What I mean is that Yahweh is actually an image of a demon, not a liberating god.

If anything, the Christian revelation gave birth to a different god-concept, and therefore described, in fact, a very different god. (I mean if you go in for those sorts of concepts). That is why, in John, the former god-concept is described as a demonic figure. This split in theological definition needs to be examined more closely.

But now, so too was the restoration of Israel foretold...an unprecedented national regeneration, unlike anything to be found in all of history...one might well call it a "miracle" -- except you don't believe in such things.

I do not come here as one who *believes* these stories but rather as one who examines how stories are employed. True indeed, the reconquest of Palestine was a reenactment of the first conquest. This was done with deliberateness. And the reconquest was *sold to the world* as a biblical enactment. But that makes it even that much more dark and strange (when seen from the angle I present). Massive manipulation of sheep-like "believers" who have no choice but to give their moral and ethical assent to something ugly and cruel: the establishment of the State of Israel.

Christian Zionism then shows itself to be something quite dark, ugly and rather horrifying. It involves all the sorts of manipulations that we define as *evils* in our present time.

There had already been a mild *return* to Palestine (late 19th early 20th century) and those Jews lived in peace with their neighbors. In 1948 a crime was committed. And if that crime was inspired or condoned by "God" then, indeed and without any doubt, that god is not a moral or ethical god. Therefore, the entire topic of ethics and morals are not in god's hands. They are in man's hands.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 7:10 pm What the Rabbis say is that the Holocaust was a decision God made.

It was a decision the Nazis made, for sure. And it's a decision much of the rest of the world made. And it's the long result of decisions Israel made. After we finish assigning all that responsibility it maybe makes some sense to talk about what God had promised would follow such decisions. The book of the prophet Isaiah pretty much covers all that.

If you or anyone actually believes in a God that does these sorts of things,...

I certainly believe men do them.

What you can blame God for is not that. If you think the Nazis, or the Russians, or Hamas is doing anything God told them to do, you're going to have to show me that passage. However, God did warn Israel that turning to their own way would have certain consequences; these need not be at all consequences visited on them by God, but rather the consequences of abandoning God and throwing themselves into the hands of men.

But here's the deal: No such God did no such thing.

Now we agree, despite the double negative. God did no such thing.

I'm quite surprised that you're so quick to blame God for things so manifestly done by the hands of humans. It's almost like you imagine some kind of Determinist "god," who can then be blamed for all that humans choose to do. But free will is free -- free to do good, but free to do evil. You need not assign fault in God, when all the key actors in the drama were human.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 1:44 am

Janoah wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:51 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:23 am

Looks like the Secretary-General of the UN condemned them.

This is the private opinion of the Secretary-General, but not a decision of the UN.
Or maybe I didn’t notice how the penguins flew and the UN condemned Hamas?

I don't know what to tell you then. Your government has killed almost 10 times as many Palestinians as the number of Israelis who died. The Bush administration killed many times more Iraqis and Afghanis than those of our own who died on 9/11. Are we supposed to be proud of those accomplishments?

The United States, in defense, dropped atomic bombs on cities; during WW2 allies bombed German cities to get to the Nazis.
No one is proud of this, but it never occurs to anyone not to condemn the Nazis.

Israel warned the civilian population of Gaza to flee the fighting to the south.
Because Hamas forces are building tunnels under residential areas, from which they come out to kill, and from houses they are shooting, and they are setting up command posts in hospitals and mosques.
And if Hamas prevents the civilian population from leaving the combat zone, then it is responsible for this crime, the use of human shields.
So why doesn't the UN condemn Hamas' atrocities and its use of civilians as human shields?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 7:29 pmHowever, God did warn Israel that turning to their own way would have certain consequences; these need not be at all consequences visited on them by God, but rather the consequences of abandoning God and throwing themselves into the hands of men.

No, a priest-class created an extraordinarily effective means to manipulate men by asserting and insisting that Yahweh said any of those things ventriloquised onto that terrible, solitary demon-like entity.

You really need to bring yourself up to date, IC!

For the Rabbis, and you can research this yourself, Yahweh effectively caused the Holocaust in order to punish secularized Jews. If Yahweh placed the idea in Gentile minds (this is a core tenet of strict Judaism because Gentiles are understood to be demonic beings and Jews are of another, divine order), Yahweh is by definition complicit.

Yahweh is the enemy of assimilation and secularization. To mix is to sin. It is ur-racism. Do that and to the ovens you will go.

You would do well to understand the ramifications of these demonic phantasies. Orthodox Jewish ideas and Nazi ideas (one borne of religiousness, the other borne of rejection of the same) concord with one another. Orthodoxy supported the National Socialist social policies of making intermarriage, and assimilation, illegal.

The “god” you hold in your mind — a god-concept I call it — is unreal. Yet it is immensely powerful to the degree you blow force into it. It has more in common with a visualized demonic entity than with a transcendent force of goodness.

Trippy, eh?

Don’t hesitate to reach out to me as the diabolical layers fall away.