Philosophy Now Forum

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:Christians literally teach people to hate Jews.

more straw man arguments

How could it possibly be a strawman argument when I quoted from Christian scripture, a number of anti-semitic statements. And neither you, nor any other christian here, will agree that such scripture should be shredded and no longer taught? Since I am accurately stating what Christians teach children, it is you who is making a chldish strawman argument, not me.

ForgedinHell wrote:Since I am accurately stating what Christians teach children

As someone who was educated in a Catholic school it is my experience that most children are given a highly selective exposure to Biblical teachings. Perhaps in some places every passage is dissected and taught to children but it's not my experience.

And I'd also guess that many people who profess to be Christians have probably had virtually no exposure to the Bible, not to any great depth anyway, and only claim to be Christian because they've historically and culturally done so.

I was never taught that I should hate jews.

There are some radical Christian sects though, perhaps they are so radical in their views.

In a novel from the 19th century, long before the holocaust, I remember a sentence: God also created the Jews, they have to live somehow. Spoken by an uneducated peasant. And Jews in those days were money lenders and therefore not very popular.

duszek wrote:I was never taught that I should hate jews.

There are some radical Christian sects though, perhaps they are so radical in their views.

In a novel from the 19th century, long before the holocaust, I remember a sentence: God also created the Jews, they have to live somehow. Spoken by an uneducated peasant. And Jews in those days were money lenders and therefore not very popular.

Jews were forced to be money-lenders due to anti-semitism.

Look, here is the main point I am trying to make. And I am not just concerned about Christianity, but all religions. Every religion has writings that are hateful and cause harm. Christians should be especially sensitive in light of the Holocaust, and the facts are in, there was a real Christian connection. What I am asking everyone to do, even Jews, is to closely look at your holy writ, and when you find those that teach hatred, rip them to shreads. Either have the courage to walk away from those statements, tell the world, including others who share your religious beliefs, that this is not what I believe in, this is not right, this had to be placed there through some sort of mistake. I'm just asking for people to have the courage to face the hard truths about their religion. It is the only way I can think of to make religions more moral.

If I have been a dagger in your side, then good. I believe that Christians, and all theists, have a choice to make: Are they going to do the morally right thing, or continue to allow hate to permeate their religions. The choice is yours. As I am an atheist, I have no such choice to make. But, I do have the choice of standing on the sidelines and allowing hate to get a free pass under the name of religion, or to take abuse and challenge what are evil beliefs.

ForgedinHell wrote:How could it possibly be a strawman argument when I quoted from Christian scripture,

you referred to christians not christian scripture - not that referring to the latter would have improved your argument much

but i can say with certainty that whatever other loonie things i may have been taught in southern baptist sunday school hating jews was not one of them

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:How could it possibly be a strawman argument when I quoted from Christian scripture,

you referred to christians not christian scripture - not that referring to the latter would have improved your argument much

but i can say with certainty that whatever other loonie things i may have been taught in southern baptist sunday school hating jews was not one of them

Well, there are numerous Christians, like David Duke, for example who use Christianity to spread hate against the Jews. But, in citing actual scripture, which clearly shows disgusting statements against Jews, how can anyone honestly state that Christianity does not teach hatred against Jews? One can't. What you and others have been arguing is that you personally do not hate Jews. I'll accept that, but, how does that change matters? To the extent you don't hate Jews, you have merely rejected some of Christianity's teachings. You may also have nothing against gays, and maybe you don't grab for rocks to stone them with, when they walk by you, but Christianity also states awful things about gays. What is wrong about being honest regarding the hate that is still being taught in religion, and getting rid of those statements?

ForgedinHell wrote:

duszek wrote:I was never taught that I should hate jews.

There are some radical Christian sects though, perhaps they are so radical in their views.

In a novel from the 19th century, long before the holocaust, I remember a sentence: God also created the Jews, they have to live somehow. Spoken by an uneducated peasant. And Jews in those days were money lenders and therefore not very popular.

Jews were forced to be money-lenders due to anti-semitism.

Look, here is the main point I am trying to make. And I am not just concerned about Christianity, but all religions. Every religion has writings that are hateful and cause harm. Christians should be especially sensitive in light of the Holocaust, and the facts are in, there was a real Christian connection. What I am asking everyone to do, even Jews, is to closely look at your holy writ, and when you find those that teach hatred, rip them to shreads. Either have the courage to walk away from those statements, tell the world, including others who share your religious beliefs, that this is not what I believe in, this is not right, this had to be placed there through some sort of mistake. I'm just asking for people to have the courage to face the hard truths about their religion. It is the only way I can think of to make religions more moral.

If I have been a dagger in your side, then good. I believe that Christians, and all theists, have a choice to make: Are they going to do the morally right thing, or continue to allow hate to permeate their religions. The choice is yours. As I am an atheist, I have no such choice to make. But, I do have the choice of standing on the sidelines and allowing hate to get a free pass under the name of religion, or to take abuse and challenge what are evil beliefs.

You sound very emotional.
Yes, Jesus said that a slave should obey his master, and this is not something that is being preached during a mass.
And that women should submit to men is of historical interest. And that women should not speak in public.

Calm down.
I was in a synagogue recently. On a friendly excursion. Nobody I know hates the Jews.

The psalms of King Salomon are often about enemies who should perish. But it was thousands of years ago when they were created so what can you expect ? It was a savage world back then.

I have never harmed any Jews. I am friends with some of them, up to a point. I once got a kippa as a good buy present. (To give it to my man ? I did not ask.) I still have the kippa. Pehaps it was a joke because I seemed so prim and proper to them.

duszek wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:

duszek wrote:I was never taught that I should hate jews.

There are some radical Christian sects though, perhaps they are so radical in their views.

In a novel from the 19th century, long before the holocaust, I remember a sentence: God also created the Jews, they have to live somehow. Spoken by an uneducated peasant. And Jews in those days were money lenders and therefore not very popular.

Jews were forced to be money-lenders due to anti-semitism.

Look, here is the main point I am trying to make. And I am not just concerned about Christianity, but all religions. Every religion has writings that are hateful and cause harm. Christians should be especially sensitive in light of the Holocaust, and the facts are in, there was a real Christian connection. What I am asking everyone to do, even Jews, is to closely look at your holy writ, and when you find those that teach hatred, rip them to shreads. Either have the courage to walk away from those statements, tell the world, including others who share your religious beliefs, that this is not what I believe in, this is not right, this had to be placed there through some sort of mistake. I'm just asking for people to have the courage to face the hard truths about their religion. It is the only way I can think of to make religions more moral.

If I have been a dagger in your side, then good. I believe that Christians, and all theists, have a choice to make: Are they going to do the morally right thing, or continue to allow hate to permeate their religions. The choice is yours. As I am an atheist, I have no such choice to make. But, I do have the choice of standing on the sidelines and allowing hate to get a free pass under the name of religion, or to take abuse and challenge what are evil beliefs.

You sound very emotional.
Yes, Jesus said that a slave should obey his master, and this is not something that is being preached during a mass.
And that women should submit to men is of historical interest. And that women should not speak in public.

Calm down.
I was in a synagogue recently. On a friendly excursion. Nobody I know hates the Jews.

The psalms of King Salomon are often about enemies who should perish. But it was thousands of years ago when they were created so what can you expect ? It was a savage world back then.

I have never harmed any Jews. I am friends with some of them, up to a point. I once got a kippa as a good buy present. (To give it to my man ? I did not ask.) I still have the kippa. Pehaps it was a joke because I seemed so prim and proper to them.

So, your position is that I am "emotional"? Let's assume for the sake of argument that I am an emotional basket case. So? Would that make any of my arguments wrong? No. Saying that I am "emotional" is just another way of personally attacking me, instead of doing the much harder work of addressing my argument. I could be the worse scumbag in history, and my argument may still be sound.

The second point you make is you claim because you do not hate Jews personally that my argument is wrong. If I had argued that you personally were anti-semitic, then I could see your point, but I am arguing that Christianity itself is anti-semitic, which it is, I quoted the relevant scripture for one thing, and given its history, including the role it played in the Holocaust, it is immoral to remain a Christian. At least, it is immoral to do so without confronting the hateful statements in scripture and removing them from one's religion. You made no mention of whether you were willing to fight against Christian anti-semitism by insisting that anti-semitic passages be removed from the bible. Why is it so difficult for a group of people who claim to be so moral to fight against the immoral statements in their own religion?

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:How could it possibly be a strawman argument when I quoted from Christian scripture,

you referred to christians not christian scripture - not that referring to the latter would have improved your argument much

but i can say with certainty that whatever other loonie things i may have been taught in southern baptist sunday school hating jews was not one of them

Sixty years ago, it might have been.
Ranting about 'Communists and Jews' was a pretty normal part of right-wing Xian rhetoric until the US realised that having Israel for an ally was necessary for the security of oil supplies.
Populism is a fickle thing.

Thundril wrote:

Kayla wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:How could it possibly be a strawman argument when I quoted from Christian scripture,

you referred to christians not christian scripture - not that referring to the latter would have improved your argument much

but i can say with certainty that whatever other loonie things i may have been taught in southern baptist sunday school hating jews was not one of them

Sixty years ago, it might have been.
Ranting about 'Communists and Jews' was a pretty normal part of right-wing Xian rhetoric until the US realised that having Israel for an ally was necessary for the security of oil supplies.
Populism is a fickle thing.

Have you cruised the net lately? Just go to youtube and type in the word "Jew" and you are far more likely to find videos claiming that Jews were behind 9/11, the economic crisis, all wars, terrorist attacks, the BP oil spill, shark attacks (not exaggerating), the Japanese earth quake, that they own all the banks including the Federal Reserve, etc., etc., than you will find a video stating something nice about Jews, like they are pretty (Scarlett Johansson), smart (Richard Feynman) and funny (Jack Black). I have Jewish friends who get sick looking at that crap. They don't even want to have kids for fear of what is going on. Argentina in the 1970s murdered Jews by dumping them alive from helicopters into the ocean. HamASS's charter, and HamASS runs the Palestinian Authority, calls for the death of all Jews, everywhere, not just in Israel. Do you know how many people on this very site have come out in support of the Palestinian Authority? More than a few. The Palestinian Authority called the murderer of the Fogel family (could be wrong on spelling), where both parents and four children, including a four-month-old baby, were stabbed to death a hero and a legend and called for more heroes and legends. This is a government sponsored TV show. The Jewish children, including the young girl who was grabbed by the hair and shot in the face in France? The perp videotaped the murder, and the tapes have been published on numerous muslim sites calling for the murder of more Jewish kids.

I cannot think of another group of people who get blamed for everything, and whose lives matter so little to so many, than the Jews.

While there is no rational reason for anti-semitism, to suggest it is a thing of the past is not reality. All irrational hate should end. That's why I am taking the position I have.

ForgedinHell wrote:
Have you cruised the net lately? Just go to youtube and type in the word "Jew" and you are far more likely to find videos claiming that Jews were behind 9/11, the economic crisis, all wars, terrorist attacks, the BP oil spill, shark attacks (not exaggerating), the Japanese earth quake, that they own all the banks including the Federal Reserve, etc., etc., than you will find a video stating something nice about Jews, like they are pretty (Scarlett Johansson), smart (Richard Feynman) and funny (Jack Black). I have Jewish friends who get sick looking at that crap. They don't even want to have kids for fear of what is going on. Argentina in the 1970s murdered Jews by dumping them alive from helicopters into the ocean. HamASS's charter, and HamASS runs the Palestinian Authority, calls for the death of all Jews, everywhere, not just in Israel. Do you know how many people on this very site have come out in support of the Palestinian Authority? More than a few. The Palestinian Authority called the murderer of the Fogel family (could be wrong on spelling), where both parents and four children, including a four-month-old baby, were stabbed to death a hero and a legend and called for more heroes and legends. This is a government sponsored TV show. The Jewish children, including the young girl who was grabbed by the hair and shot in the face in France? The perp videotaped the murder, and the tapes have been published on numerous muslim sites calling for the murder of more Jewish kids.

I cannot think of another group of people who get blamed for everything, and whose lives matter so little to so many, than the Jews.

While there is no rational reason for anti-semitism, to suggest it is a thing of the past is not reality. All irrational hate should end. That's why I am taking the position I have.

Believe me, I am not suggesting that anti-Semitism is a thing of the past.
On the contrary, by reminding Kayla of just how recently, in the history of her own country, anti-Semitism was an accepted part of right-wing political discourse, I am pointing to the fickleness of populist thinking, and the need for constant vigilance.

Thundril wrote:

ForgedinHell wrote:
Have you cruised the net lately? Just go to youtube and type in the word "Jew" and you are far more likely to find videos claiming that Jews were behind 9/11, the economic crisis, all wars, terrorist attacks, the BP oil spill, shark attacks (not exaggerating), the Japanese earth quake, that they own all the banks including the Federal Reserve, etc., etc., than you will find a video stating something nice about Jews, like they are pretty (Scarlett Johansson), smart (Richard Feynman) and funny (Jack Black). I have Jewish friends who get sick looking at that crap. They don't even want to have kids for fear of what is going on. Argentina in the 1970s murdered Jews by dumping them alive from helicopters into the ocean. HamASS's charter, and HamASS runs the Palestinian Authority, calls for the death of all Jews, everywhere, not just in Israel. Do you know how many people on this very site have come out in support of the Palestinian Authority? More than a few. The Palestinian Authority called the murderer of the Fogel family (could be wrong on spelling), where both parents and four children, including a four-month-old baby, were stabbed to death a hero and a legend and called for more heroes and legends. This is a government sponsored TV show. The Jewish children, including the young girl who was grabbed by the hair and shot in the face in France? The perp videotaped the murder, and the tapes have been published on numerous muslim sites calling for the murder of more Jewish kids.

I cannot think of another group of people who get blamed for everything, and whose lives matter so little to so many, than the Jews.

While there is no rational reason for anti-semitism, to suggest it is a thing of the past is not reality. All irrational hate should end. That's why I am taking the position I have.

Believe me, I am not suggesting that anti-Semitism is a thing of the past.
On the contrary, by reminding Kayla of just how recently, in the history of her own country, anti-Semitism was an accepted part of right-wing political discourse, I am pointing to the fickleness of populist thinking, and the need for constant vigilance.

That's my point. How does one stay vigilant without recognizing the truth of what happened in the past, and what exists in the present? And don't you think that if people were to go through their religious books and agree to exclude all the hateful passages, that we would be in far less danger of some genocide occurring again? Humanity has had enough of them.

My question is, what does the Torah teach besides saying the Jesus was not the Messiah, is there a Messiah according to the Torah and when and how will he come about? There are also Christian Jews and Jews who dont follow their religion. A Jew who believes in the Torah and follows its rules would be classified as "orthodox"? Would you be orthodox?

reasonvemotion wrote:My question is, what does the Torah teach besides saying the Jesus was not the Messiah, is there a Messiah according to the Torah and when and how will he come about? There are also Christian Jews and Jews who dont follow their religion. A Jew who believes in the Torah and follows its rules would be classified as "orthodox"? Would you be orthodox?

Most Jews do not believe in any coming messiah. The messiah was never contemplated as being a god anyway, the notion is entirely inconsistent with Judaism.

Judaism is misunderstood by most, and the Orthodox Jews are the biggest offenders. Judaism evolves. Judaism is constantly in flux. It is different today from yesterday. Judaism is a system of thought that applies principles to new situations, and also develops new principles as one goes along. Some Jews believe in a messiah, many don't. Some Jews believe in a god concept like the Christians, most don't. Some Jews believe in god, many don't. Some Jews believe god is beyond our comprehension, others that it is our social conscience, others that it is a divine energy that lives within each of us, etc., etc. In short, there is no one set Jewish belief regarding Jesus, the Messiah, or even what Judaism itself involves.

With the above caveat, here is my view. What the Torah states about Jesus is that Jesus cannot be god, cannot be worshipped as a god, and still be of god. Abraham destroyed icons of gods. He was an iconoclast. Therefore, hidden in code, is a basic principle of Judaism: the destruction of icons. This is why Judaism has nothing to do with Christianity. Another major principle of Judaism is an abstract conception of god, god cannot be reduced to the concrete. God tells Moses not that its name is "I am what I am," but "I am what I am becoming." For Jews, god is a verb, not a noun, it is evolving. It evolves with us. Now, combine just these two basic principles, and what do you get regarding Jesus? Jesus becomes a concrete, easier to grasp symbol of god, for many people. But, the Jewish conception of god is of an abstract being beyond our understanding, so to reduce god to such a state is abhorrent. Furthermore, Jesus becomes a symbol, an icon, and Judaism seeks to evolve beyond the use of icons.

Another note, which so many misunderstand, is the story of Isaac almost being sacrificed by Abraham. Most people think the message of the story is that Abraham showed his faith in god in being willing to kill his son. This is the exact opposite of the story's meaning. At the time, the Jews lived by people who routinely sacrificed their first-born male son to god. The willingness to sacrifice was considered no big deal. The big deal was in not sacrificing his son. The clue? The angel had to tell Abraham twice not to kill Isaac. So, the Jews abandoned the idea of a god that required human sacrifice centuries before the Jesus story comes about, stating that god required a human sacrifice. That is considered to be insulting to the image of god.

For Jews, the Jesus myth turns things backwards by centuries.

ForgedinHell wrote:

Thundril wrote: Believe me, I am not suggesting that anti-Semitism is a thing of the past.
On the contrary, by reminding Kayla of just how recently, in the history of her own country, anti-Semitism was an accepted part of right-wing political discourse, I am pointing to the fickleness of populist thinking, and the need for constant vigilance.

That's my point. How does one stay vigilant without recognizing the truth of what happened in the past, and what exists in the present? And don't you think that if people were to go through their religious books and agree to exclude all the hateful passages, that we would be in far less danger of some genocide occurring again? Humanity has had enough of them.

Indeed it would be wonderful if all religious groups (and their secular counterparts, the political parties) recognised the essential dignity of all humans, and repudiated spiteful attitudes like racism, sexism and homophobia.
But as long as these vicious attitudes are harboured in some human hearts, there is not much point asking those who are already growing away from such beliefs (eg mainstream Xianity) to perform a token display of repudiation, in the shape of a ritual desecration of their scriptures.
Attacking religion has never worked in the past, and there is no reason to suppose it will in the future. Far better to engage, to argue, to listen; and where intelligent religious people are challenging the more primitive aspects of their own faiths, to acknowledge that, and give respect.

Editted to add: Would you also censor The Merchant of Venice, and excise the N word from Huckleberry Finn?