Philosophy Now Forum

Alexis pronounced darkly:

However, the metaphysics are as valid as they ever were if the principles are successfully extracted and understood.

Okay if a stratified society is what you want.
A society rigidly stratified by relative power will be bad for human rights. Your star is in the ascendant in the USA.

Pope Leo X1V hails from.my former home town of Chicago. I'd like to give him some tips on how to run his papacy, based on the time-honored traditions of Chicago politics.

1) All new Cardinals should be from Chicago and of the same ethnicity as Leo.

2) Any construction work done in Vatican city should be done by Leo's close relatives. They can be paid slightly above market rate.

3) Signs at all entrances to Vatican City should state: "Pope Leo XIV welcomes you to Vatican City".

4) Now that Sears & Roebuck has gone belly up, the Papal Headquarters can be moved to the old Sears building, the tallest edifice in Chicago.

5) All masses must begin with Carl Sandburg's poem, in attempt to make Catholicism more masculine. The Church will now be seen as:

..
Laughing the stormy, husky, brawling la;ughter of Youth, half-naked, sweating, proud to be Hog Butcher, Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, Player with Railroads and Freight Handler to the Nation

Go to it, Leo!

(The "hog butcher" bit can distinguish Catholics from those infidel Muslims and Jews.)

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:28 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:04 pm However, the metaphysics are as valid as they ever were if the principles are successfully extracted and understood.

What are those principles, AJ?

Since the conversation here began about a new Pope, and then about Catholicism generally, and then since I proposed that either God could or did ”speak” to the Prophets, or that this is fantasy and the entire construct is false (imagined, invented), I then return to the central reason the Church has existed: it is the prophecy of and the doctrine that is one of the pillars of revelation: the Kingdom of Heaven on earth which exists, but is not realized.

Truly, a grandiose idealism. Yet it is the idea undergirding the Occident: the construction of a sane, ideal society.

While I am uncertain how to create a list of principles, I think establishing the prospect, the motivating impetus, is definitely a first step.

Thus, to say “the Church is irrelevant” (and to bring out all the conventional criticisms) is simply not fair.

godelian wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 5:06 am The vast majority of Catholics are not aware of what exactly Catholic doctrine insists on. For them, religion is just a few rituals and ceremonies, such as marriage, funerals, and occasionally a baptism, if even.

Going to church on Sunday in order to undergo indoctrinating speeches, is not something that the average Catholic still wants to do.

He doesn't know, and he doesn't even want to know what Catholic doctrine is about. Furthermore, that is also what the clergy thinks about it. The flock of Catholic sheep should not deal with complicated ideas, such as what exactly Catholicism is.

So, indeed, the average Catholic has no idea of what Catholic doctrine says. Welcome to the real world!

As a result of many causes the post-Vatican ll Catholic catechistic training was loosened. Those “traditionalists” of a more rigorous orientation definitely saw it happening and predicted the results. From the 1960s to the 1980s the liturgy was (for want of a better word) gutted. They also gutted the churches of typical iconography. The valuation of a religious vocation was depreciated.

More or less fitting in with the crass liberations of the 1960s.

Traditionalists go back to the roots and re-catechize themselves. Though I am not Catholic and was not raised in Christianity, I submitted myself to this process for my own reasons. (Influenced by René Guénon and Christopher Dawson primarily). The traditional texts exist.

I stand by the following: to the degree that Mass Man achieves directive power and influence, is the precise degree that he chooses to veer away from what is demanding, rigorous and serious; and is the degree that man makes himself a slave of “the mutable”. Those high ideals are not felt to be needed. In fact they encumber pleasures and make ease less attainable.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:32 pm Alexis pronounced darkly:

However, the metaphysics are as valid as they ever were if the principles are successfully extracted and understood.

Okay if a stratified society is what you want.
A society rigidly stratified by relative power will be bad for human rights. Your star is in the ascendant in the USA.

You are talking of something I am not talking about. I am referring to hierarchies of knowledge and of value.

You are talking of the Medieval division of society into 3 rigid classes.

godelian wrote: ↑Fri May 09, 2025 3:08 am Yeah, it is obviously necessary to vote for who is going to be the next representative of God on earth. I wonder why they did not vote for me? If I win the elections, I will be infallible !!!

Only if you keep your mouth shut. If you are going to pump out some Encyclicals, delegate the task to those qualified to pull it off. Feel free to plagiarize from, say, Pius V or Pius X.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 7:17 pm
the central reason the Church has existed: it is the prophecy of and the doctrine that is one of the pillars of revelation: the Kingdom of Heaven on earth which exists, but is not realized...it is the idea undergirding the Occident: the construction of a sane, ideal society.

While I am uncertain how to create a list of principles, I think establishing the prospect, the motivating impetus, is definitely a first step.

Okay, the construction of a sane, ideal society is the goal

Surely, you must have the inkling of its foundational principles?

Forget filigree: just throw 'em out there.

godelian wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:20 pm I firmly believe that the Pope is the fake representative of God on earth, just like myself.

You are operating from mistakes in your terms. Vicar of Christ is understood differently. To be one does require “apostolic investiture” however. Which involves the supernatural, naturally.

[Middle English, from Old French vicaire, from Latin vicārius, vicarious, a substitute, from vicis, genitive of *vix, change; see weik- in Indo-European roots.]

Vicar of Christ

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 10:01 pm Surely you must have the inkling of its foundational principles?

Oh sure. Allow me to inkle …

The desire, the willingness, to submit oneself to molding power of a higher (spiritual) order. That is the or a first principle. To value what is spiritual and non-material over what is strictly material. That is another. To value one’s primary relationship as a sacred union (marriage). That is another core principle. To regard other human beings as especially valuable because of their connection to the creator, because of their capabilities. The capacity, also due to a tempered will, to voluntarily place certain values over and above one’s own desires, longings and wants. That reflects a set of principles. To accept the (possible? probable?) existence of a larger Plan for ourselves, this life, this world, even if and when it seems improbable, unlikely, unrealizable. That is also reflective of a “principle”. To hold to certain paradigms of ideas (of an idealistic sort) in spite of other moods or temperaments of a negative sort. That is certainly a principle.

You perhaps are curious about the specifics of Catholic social and economic ethics? Do you want me to list those as well?

As a seal-in-training I await my treat!

Baltimore Catechism

godelian wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:20 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:41 am 2. So, what is the, exact, reason you keep using the words, 'the representative of God on earth', here?

I firmly believe that the Pope is the fake representative of God on earth, just like myself.

So, 'the reason' you call the "pope", 'the representative of God, on earth', is because you, firmly, believe that the "pope" is the, fake, representative of God, on earth.

godelian wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:20 pm I am also a fake representative of God on earth.

Why do you provide fake representations of God, on earth? Why not just provide real representations, instead?

godelian wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:20 pm That is why I like the Pope so much. I can very much relate to him. He is just better at the same job than I am. You see, I am also infallible, but nobody wants to believe it when I say that.

Why do others not want to believe that 'you' are, supposedly, infallible?

godelian wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:20 pm When the Pope says that, however, everybody falls in line.

Can you provide 'the times' the "pope" has claimed that it is infallible?

If yes, then great, and will you?

If no, then why not, exactly?

godelian wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 4:20 pm That is the difference between the Pope and me. I like the Pope a lot! I wish I could be just like him!

How the "pope" is, actually? Or, how you imagine the "pope", to be?

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 2:30 am So, 'the reason' you call the "pope", 'the representative of God, on earth', is because you, firmly, believe that the "pope" is the, fake, representative of God, on earth.

Yes, there must always be a Holy Hominid on earth. Otherwise, the universe may even fall apart. He must be selected from the great apes. However, given our long-standing truce with the gorillas, it must not be a chimp! A baboon is fine, though. According to the Great Pragmatic Treaty of the Neolithic Revolution, it is the most retarded section of the human population, i.e. the Catholics, that must elect him. They just did. This will perpetuate peace on earth. Again, the Catholics have done a great job. We can all carry on now and enjoy the amazing view.

godelian wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 2:52 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 2:30 am So, 'the reason' you call the "pope", 'the representative of God, on earth', is because you, firmly, believe that the "pope" is the, fake, representative of God, on earth.

Yes, there must always be a Holy Hominid on earth.

Obviously 'this one' has 'missed the point', completely, again.

godelian wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 2:52 am Otherwise, the universe may even fall apart. He must be selected from the great apes. However, given our long-standing truce with the gorillas, it must not be a chimp! A baboon is fine, though. According to the Great Pragmatic Treaty of the Neolithic Revolution, it is the most retarded section of the human population, i.e. the Catholics, that must elect him. They just did. This will perpetuate peace on earth. Again, the Catholics have done a great job. We can all carry on now and enjoy the amazing view.

Once again, 'this one' is completely and utterly 'missing the mark'.

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 4:50 am

godelian wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 2:52 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 2:30 am So, 'the reason' you call the "pope", 'the representative of God, on earth', is because you, firmly, believe that the "pope" is the, fake, representative of God, on earth.

Yes, there must always be a Holy Hominid on earth.

Obviously 'this one' has 'missed the point', completely, again.

godelian wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 2:52 am Otherwise, the universe may even fall apart. He must be selected from the great apes. However, given our long-standing truce with the gorillas, it must not be a chimp! A baboon is fine, though. According to the Great Pragmatic Treaty of the Neolithic Revolution, it is the most retarded section of the human population, i.e. the Catholics, that must elect him. They just did. This will perpetuate peace on earth. Again, the Catholics have done a great job. We can all carry on now and enjoy the amazing view.

Once again, 'this one' is completely and utterly 'missing the mark'.

The Pope is a fantastic guy!

If I only I could be more like the Pope, then my meme coins would be doing a lot better!

Currently, the top meme coin is DOGE (position 8, $36 billion), regularly pumped by our good friend, Elon Musk. The second best performing one is SHIBA INU (position 15, $10 billion).

I was thinking of launching a meme coin, HOLY MOLY LEO. I am sure that the hominids can defeat the canines. Even with Elon on their side, the canines are not going to win the race. You see, the dogs are not allowed to elect a fake representative of God on earth. That is against the regulations. That is a prerogative of the great apes. That is why we cannot be defeated. So, I am going to pump HOLY MOLY LEO, and keep pumping, before doing a rug pull and cash in on a whole bunch of Catholic peasants who will lose their money!

By the way, OFFICIAL TRUMP (position 35, $3 billion) still hasn't managed to catch up with the dogs. That is not a good thing. If he doesn't do something about that, they will end up designating him as "worse than a dog".

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 1:38 pmThis is true. Because I have studied the issue (in essence it can be labeled “the destruction of the Catholic Christian tradition”) I also know that the process began earlier (than Vatican ll).

For there to be a Vatican II there had to be a long period where the incongruities between church doctrine and modern sensibilities (almost opposite to what once was) had to manifest, forcing a resolution or compromise. Vatican II was an exercise in keeping itself relevant.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 1:38 pmAnd while the result is increased secularism the “real reasons” for the destruction have to do with the collapse of the metaphysical predicates that support the System.

Even metaphysical predicates, being exclusively our own, are not so absolute as to be valid for all time. Paradoxically, if that were the case, these metaphysical imperatives would have had to exist prior to humans themselves existing.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 1:38 pmThe larger issue here, as I am sure you know, is the ruthless advance of a new system of organizing perception and understanding of “what is”: i.e. of what is real and what is not.

It's less a matter of what is real than what temporarily is accepted as real. Each age incorporates and responds to its own realities. In human affairs, truth never emerges as anything which qualifies as absolute. Truth remains a probability variable.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat May 10, 2025 1:38 pmAs you have noticed (it is a view you hold in tremendous contempt and I say this not to provoke)

There you are wrong! What would be the reason for me to hold it in tremendous contempt as if it were some deranged plot purposely misguiding humans?

I am interested in (involved with, committed to) the restoration of metaphysical grounding, not the destruction of it.

It's hard to reinvent old metaphysics without making it appear more artificial. Looking backwards - even if it succeeded to a degree in being reformational - is, at best, incipient to a more thorough revision of what in the past was regarded as metaphysics; one that still suffers too much from a medieval hangover.

Metaphysics is as inherent to the human psyche as is its will to truth. But why should it remain forever crucified and buried in a tomb of rules, regulations and restraints however revised?

A true metaphysic keeps advancing re-fertilizing itself, moving, more or less, as the cosmos itself moves. It can never remain stagnant as if existing only within a single orbit. The human brain rarely retains all the values it once maintained.

godelian wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 5:05 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 4:50 am

godelian wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 2:52 am
Yes, there must always be a Holy Hominid on earth.

Obviously 'this one' has 'missed the point', completely, again.

godelian wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 2:52 am Otherwise, the universe may even fall apart. He must be selected from the great apes. However, given our long-standing truce with the gorillas, it must not be a chimp! A baboon is fine, though. According to the Great Pragmatic Treaty of the Neolithic Revolution, it is the most retarded section of the human population, i.e. the Catholics, that must elect him. They just did. This will perpetuate peace on earth. Again, the Catholics have done a great job. We can all carry on now and enjoy the amazing view.

Once again, 'this one' is completely and utterly 'missing the mark'.

The Pope is a fantastic guy!

If I only I could be more like the Pope, then my meme coins would be doing a lot better!

Currently, the top meme coin is DOGE (position 8, $36 billion), regularly pumped by our good friend, Elon Musk. The second best performing one is SHIBA INU (position 15, $10 billion).

I was thinking of launching a meme coin, HOLY MOLY LEO. I am sure that the hominids can defeat the canines. Even with Elon on their side, the canines are not going to win the race. You see, the dogs are not allowed to elect a fake representative of God on earth. That is against the regulations. That is a prerogative of the great apes. That is why we cannot be defeated. So, I am going to pump HOLY MOLY LEO, and keep pumping, before doing a rug pull and cash in on a whole bunch of Catholic peasants who will lose their money!

By the way, OFFICIAL TRUMP (position 35, $3 billion) still hasn't managed to catch up with the dogs. That is not a good thing. If he doesn't do something about that, they will end up designating him as "worse than a dog".

Once more 'this one' has 'missed the point', completely, and continually 'looking to' 'monetary wealth' shows and proves just how much 'this one' keeps 'missing the mark', here.