Philosophy Now Forum

The determinist, compatibilist and libertarian free-will all restrain the serial killer, rapist, thief, mugger and if possible make some attempt to rehabilitate and bring him/her back into society.

The actions are basically the same.

So I don't see why you would characterize moral responsibility within determinism as "an intellectual contortion" or "stretch the concept of responsibility into something unrecognizable".

I looks very recognizable.

phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 4:30 pm The determinist, compatibilist and libertarian free-will all restrain the serial killer, rapist, thief, mugger and if possible make some attempt to rehabilitate and bring him/her back into society.

The actions are basically the same.

So I don't see why you would characterize moral responsibility within determinism as "an intellectual contortion" or "stretch the concept of responsibility into something unrecognizable".

I looks very recognizable.

Phyllo, I see where you’re coming from—the actions taken in response to crime might look similar under determinism, compatibilism, or libertarian free will. But the rationale behind those actions—and their implications for how we treat criminals and address crime—differs significantly.

In a deterministic framework, we understand that crime arises from causes: biological predispositions, social conditions, environmental factors, and personal experiences. A serial killer or thief didn’t choose their path in a vacuum; their actions are the result of a long chain of influences. This perspective isn’t just an intellectual shift—it’s a moral and practical one.

When we hold someone "morally responsible" in the libertarian sense, it implies blame and retribution because we assume they could have chosen differently. This often leads to punitive systems focused on punishment rather than prevention or rehabilitation. But if we accept that all actions are determined, the focus changes from punishment to addressing the causes of crime. By doing so, we can prevent future crimes, rather than simply reacting to them.

Here’s the crux: determinism asks us to shift our priorities. Instead of expending resources on retributive justice, we focus on systemic changes—education, mental health care, poverty alleviation, and other factors that reduce the likelihood of criminal behavior. Short of that, we’re stuck in a cycle: crimes occur, we punish the offenders, and the underlying causes remain unaddressed. The cruelty of the system persists, but nothing fundamentally changes.

So, while the immediate actions—incarceration, rehabilitation—might appear similar, the underlying philosophy isn’t. Determinism reframes responsibility not as blame but as a call to understand and change the conditions that produce harm. If we continue to treat crime as a matter of individual failure rather than systemic causation, then, yes, no difference—crimes and our responses to them will simply repeat.

Would you agree that the "why" behind our actions matters just as much as the "what"? Because determinism offers a chance to break this cycle by focusing on prevention rather than punishment.

brain control machines that eliminate freedom of action- bringing predetermined utopia to all drones....

-Imp

Impenitent wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 7:22 pm brain control machines that eliminate freedom of action- bringing predetermined utopia to all drones....

-Imp

If only Mike's determinism were as logical as that.

From May '08...

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:52 pm Equality Concord

The Equality Concord and its dozen worlds share the dubious distinction of being the galaxy’s only genuinely functional, non-corrupt, decent-standard-of-living-enabled, etc., communist state.

(As opposed to genuinely non-functional communist states, like the former People’s State of Bantral.)

That’s because the Concord’s founders recognized the fundamental problem of Real True Communism requiring a whole set of instincts and drives and incentives and desires that are not commonly found among sophonts as nature made them. So they studied the gentle art of sophotechnology, and they built themselves some nice bionic implants to fix that problem, and create the perfect collectivist people for their perfect collectivist utopia. And then, and this is the important bit, they avoided the classic trap by applying the implants to themselves before applying them to anyone else.

It works. It may not be the most innovative of regimes, or the wealthiest, or up there on whatever other metric you choose to apply, but it does work, and self-perpetuates quite nicely.

Pity about that whole “free will” thing, but you can’t make an omelette, right?

cheezy scrambled eggs

-Imp

Phyllo, I see where you’re coming from—the actions taken in response to crime might look similar under determinism, compatibilism, or libertarian free will. But the rationale behind those actions—and their implications for how we treat criminals and address crime—differs significantly.

In a deterministic framework, we understand that crime arises from causes: biological predispositions, social conditions, environmental factors, and personal experiences. A serial killer or thief didn’t choose their path in a vacuum; their actions are the result of a long chain of influences. This perspective isn’t just an intellectual shift—it’s a moral and practical one.

When we hold someone "morally responsible" in the libertarian sense, it implies blame and retribution because we assume they could have chosen differently. This often leads to punitive systems focused on punishment rather than prevention or rehabilitation. But if we accept that all actions are determined, the focus changes from punishment to addressing the causes of crime. By doing so, we can prevent future crimes, rather than simply reacting to them.

Here’s the crux: determinism asks us to shift our priorities. Instead of expending resources on retributive justice, we focus on systemic changes—education, mental health care, poverty alleviation, and other factors that reduce the likelihood of criminal behavior. Short of that, we’re stuck in a cycle: crimes occur, we punish the offenders, and the underlying causes remain unaddressed. The cruelty of the system persists, but nothing fundamentally changes.

So, while the immediate actions—incarceration, rehabilitation—might appear similar, the underlying philosophy isn’t. Determinism reframes responsibility not as blame but as a call to understand and change the conditions that produce harm. If we continue to treat crime as a matter of individual failure rather than systemic causation, then, yes, no difference—crimes and our responses to them will simply repeat.

Would you agree that the "why" behind our actions matters just as much as the "what"? Because determinism offers a chance to break this cycle by focusing on prevention rather than punishment.

I think that the underlying reasoning is not very different.

The punishment has two goals :

- Prevent the criminal from repeating the act. That generally requires some sort of temporary or permanent restraint.

- Show the criminal and others that there are negative consequences to the behavior.

Is the threat of the punishment sufficient to prevent the behavior?

Probably not. Which is why there is a need for rehabilitation and reeducation of the criminal and a need to change society to make the behavior less appealing.

I think it applies for determinism, compatibilism and libertarian free-will.

phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:58 pm I think that the underlying reasoning is not very different.

The punishment has two goals :

- Prevent the criminal from repeating the act. That generally requires some sort of temporary or permanent restraint.

- Show the criminal and others that there are negative consequences to the behavior.

Is the threat of the punishment sufficient to prevent the behavior?

Probably not. Which is why there is a need for rehabilitation and reeducation of the criminal and a need to change society to make the behavior less appealing.

I think it applies for determinism, compatibilism and libertarian free-will.

Phyllo, you’ve pointed out some overlap in the immediate goals of addressing crime—restraint, rehabilitation, and deterrence—and I agree that those goals are present in all frameworks. But the difference lies in how those goals are conceptualized and, more importantly, how we approach the root causes of crime. That distinction matters because it shapes how we build systems of justice.

Compatibilists redefine free will to align with determinism, arguing that people act freely if they are following their internal desires or rational deliberations, even if those desires are determined. Then, in practice, many sneak back the "free" part when it comes to assigning moral responsibility. They hold individuals accountable as though they could have chosen otherwise, which leads to systems rooted in blame and retribution. This implicit contradiction perpetuates punitive approaches that focus on individual failure instead of systemic problems.

Determinists, on the other hand, reject the notion of moral responsibility as traditionally understood. We don’t see crime as a matter of individual failure or bad moral choices; we see it as the outcome of a complex interplay of factors—biological, social, environmental—that can and should be addressed. By focusing on prevention rather than punishment, determinism shifts the emphasis from reacting to crime to fixing the conditions that cause it.

For example, while compatibilists might argue that punishment deters crime by demonstrating negative consequences, determinists recognize that deterrence often fails because it doesn’t address the root causes. A person committing theft out of poverty isn’t weighing the risks of punishment in the same way a wealthy person might. Fixing poverty, providing education, and ensuring access to mental health care would do more to prevent theft than any punitive measure ever could.

So yes, restraint and rehabilitation exist in all systems, but under determinism, they’re pragmatic tools, not moral imperatives. They’re aimed at minimizing harm and correcting systemic issues, not punishing individuals for failing to exercise an autonomy they never had. That’s the key difference: determinism reorients justice toward prevention, understanding, and systemic change, rather than perpetuating cycles of blame and punishment.

Do you see how that shift in focus fundamentally changes the way we approach crime and justice, even if some actions on the surface appear similar?

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:23 am Have you ever been swept away by the sheer beauty of a hymn, a political speech, or a piece of poetry—only to realize later that the message it carried wasn’t quite as sound as the feelings it stirred?

This phenomenon fascinates me. Music, poetry, and other art forms seem to have a unique ability to bypass our analytical filters and speak directly to our emotions. But here’s the question: when we prioritize emotional engagement, are we leaving our critical thinking vulnerable?

Throughout history, powerful institutions—from religious organizations to political parties—have harnessed this emotional resonance to great effect. Rousing anthems, poetic sermons, and emotionally charged rhetoric have been used to unite people, inspire action, and yes, sometimes to manipulate. If art and emotion can quiet the skeptical mind long enough to plant an idea, doesn’t that give those who wield this power an extraordinary—and potentially dangerous—advantage?

Should we be concerned about this? And if so, how can we protect ourselves and others from being emotionally swayed at the expense of critical thinking? Or, is this interplay between emotion and reason simply an inescapable—and perhaps even necessary—part of being human?

I’d love to hear your thoughts. Are there examples where you’ve felt this tension between emotion and analysis? How do we navigate the fine line between being inspired and being manipulated?

I have seen a lot of you adult human beings not use critical thinking and logical reasoning at all just because you prefer to CHOOSE to HOLD ONTO your BELIEFS instead.

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 3:11 pm

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 11:23 am Have you ever been swept away by the sheer beauty of a hymn, a political speech, or a piece of poetry—only to realize later that the message it carried wasn’t quite as sound as the feelings it stirred?

This phenomenon fascinates me. Music, poetry, and other art forms seem to have a unique ability to bypass our analytical filters and speak directly to our emotions. But here’s the question: when we prioritize emotional engagement, are we leaving our critical thinking vulnerable?

Throughout history, powerful institutions—from religious organizations to political parties—have harnessed this emotional resonance to great effect. Rousing anthems, poetic sermons, and emotionally charged rhetoric have been used to unite people, inspire action, and yes, sometimes to manipulate. If art and emotion can quiet the skeptical mind long enough to plant an idea, doesn’t that give those who wield this power an extraordinary—and potentially dangerous—advantage?

Should we be concerned about this? And if so, how can we protect ourselves and others from being emotionally swayed at the expense of critical thinking? Or, is this interplay between emotion and reason simply an inescapable—and perhaps even necessary—part of being human?

I’d love to hear your thoughts. Are there examples where you’ve felt this tension between emotion and analysis? How do we navigate the fine line between being inspired and being manipulated?

Since I am the causal agent and have pushed you to ask these probing questions, just know I am here for you!

Alexis, I appreciate your playful acknowledgment of causality in action—after all, every question I ask, and every word you write, flows from a chain of causes stretching back to the beginning of time, doesn’t it?

NO.

Here is ANOTHER PRIME example of one NOT using critical thought NOR logical reasoning, AT ALL, BECAUSE it PREFERS TO KEEP its PRE-EXISTING BELIEF/S, INSTEAD.

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm But let’s take this seriously for a moment.

Why only for a moment?

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm If we agree that all human behavior—including our emotional responses to art, music, and rhetoric—is determined by prior causes, then the question isn’t whether we are vulnerable to manipulation, but rather, how that manipulation happens and how we can mitigate it.

OBVIOUSLY you human beings are VERY VULNERABLE TO 'manipulation'. Just 'look at' you posters, here, for example.

Now, HOW 'manipulation' HAPPENS, and HOW TO mitigate 'it', is VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY, indeed.

one can only be 'manipulated' WHEN and WHILE they HAVE and/or HOLD ONTO ASSUMPTIONS or BELIEFS. Therefore, HOW TO mitigate BEING 'manipulated', AT ALL, is to JUST REMOVE ANY and ALL ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS.

And, for the PROOF of 'this', one just NEEDS TO DO IT.

In other words JUST BECOME, and JUST REMAIN, COMPLETELY OPEN. Then that is WHEN one can NOT BE 'manipulated'.

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm Emotional engagement isn’t something we choose or resist in isolation; it’s the result of deterministic processes in the brain. The evocative language in a hymn or the rhythm of a political speech activates neural circuits that have been shaped by biology, upbringing, and culture.

ONCE AGAIN, this one HAS 'MISSED THE MARK', here. But, it should NOT feel alone, here. ALL of the other ones who 'look at' 'this' 'LOOK' in 'this direction', ALSO. Which is WHY they ALL KEEP 'MISSING THE MARK', here.

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm If someone orchestrates those triggers with the intention of leading us to a specific conclusion or action, they’re simply acting within their own deterministic framework. The manipulation itself is as much a product of causation as the emotional response it seeks to provoke.

NOTICE HOW 'this one' HAS BEEN 'manipulated', here, AND is 'trying to' 'manipulate' others, as well. ALL WHILE NOT NOTICING and RECOGNIZING that it, "itself", HAS BEEN 'manipulated', and IS, 'manipulating' others, also.

AGAIN, ALL BECAUSE OF 'determinism', itself.

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm The danger arises when these processes are hidden from view. If people don’t recognize the deterministic mechanisms at work—whether in their own emotional reactions or in the persuasive strategies being used on them—they can’t critically evaluate the ideas being implanted.

Well WHEN one RECOGNIZES that ABSOLUTELY EVERY 'past experience' AND 'previous event' HAS 'determined' 'the way' one 'thinks' and 'looks at' things, 'now', in EVERY 'current moment', then that is WHEN REALIZES THE ACTUAL One and ONLY 'deterministic mechanism'.

NOTHING ELSE HAS TO ACTUALLY BE 'RECOGNIZED', here.

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm This is where education and awareness come in.

What do you think or believe one, REALLY, NEEDS to be 'educated' in, here, "bigmike"?

WHY can you, STILL, NOT YET RECOGNIZE the One and ONLY 'deterministic mechanism'?

you KEEP 'babbling on' ABOUT 'deterministic mechanisms'. So, if you REALLY DO BELIEVE that there is MORE THAN one, then just start listing them down, here.

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm By understanding that our feelings aren’t free-floating but caused, we can pause to examine what’s driving them and whether the resulting beliefs or actions hold up under scrutiny.

If A BELIEF is, or was FORMED, or CAUSED, from just an EMOTION FEELING, then 'those people' REALLY NEED TO TAKE A GOOD HARD 'LOOK AT' "themselves".

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm So, in a way, the line between inspiration and manipulation isn’t a moral one—it’s an epistemic one.

So, well to "bigmike" anyway, there is NO 'moral inspiration', in Life.

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm The more we understand the deterministic forces behind our emotions, the less likely we are to be led astray.

So, and OBVIOUSLY, 'this one' NEEDS TO LEARN, and UNDERSTAND, MORE, and ANEW, here.

HOW MANY 'deterministic forces' are there, to you, EXACTLY, "bigmike"?

BigMike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:53 pm And that’s why conversations like this matter—they add another link to the chain of causes that might just lead us all to clearer thinking.

But, WHO, EXACTLY, is going to LEAD 'you' to CLEARER THINKING?

Phyllo, you’ve pointed out some overlap in the immediate goals of addressing crime—restraint, rehabilitation, and deterrence—and I agree that those goals are present in all frameworks. But the difference lies in how those goals are conceptualized and, more importantly, how we approach the root causes of crime. That distinction matters because it shapes how we build systems of justice.

There are going to be some differences in how prevention and rehabilitation is approached.

Compatibilists redefine free will to align with determinism, arguing that people act freely if they are following their internal desires or rational deliberations, even if those desires are determined. Then, in practice, many sneak back the "free" part when it comes to assigning moral responsibility. They hold individuals accountable as though they could have chosen otherwise, which leads to systems rooted in blame and retribution. This implicit contradiction perpetuates punitive approaches that focus on individual failure instead of systemic problems.

People are responsible for their actions even if they could not do otherwise.

Determinists, on the other hand, reject the notion of moral responsibility as traditionally understood. We don’t see crime as a matter of individual failure or bad moral choices; we see it as the outcome of a complex interplay of factors—biological, social, environmental—that can and should be addressed. By focusing on prevention rather than punishment, determinism shifts the emphasis from reacting to crime to fixing the conditions that cause it.

Determinists still use restrain and punishment.

Everyone is in favor of prevention but they disagree on what prevention should look like. Determinsists don't have a monopoly on prevention.

For example, while compatibilists might argue that punishment deters crime by demonstrating negative consequences, determinists recognize that deterrence often fails because it doesn’t address the root causes. A person committing theft out of poverty isn’t weighing the risks of punishment in the same way a wealthy person might. Fixing poverty, providing education, and ensuring access to mental health care would do more to prevent theft than any punitive measure ever could.

The risk of punishment is an input to the potential criminal. Obviously, determinists use it in that way.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 4:17 pm There are going to be some differences in how prevention and rehabilitation is approached.
---
People are responsible for their actions even if they could not do otherwise.
---
Determinists still use restrain and punishment.

Everyone is in favor of prevention but they disagree on what prevention should look like. Determinsists don't have a monopoly on prevention.
---
The risk of punishment is an input to the potential criminal. Obviously, determinists use it in that way.

Phyllo, you’re right that some mechanisms, like restraint and even deterrence, appear across all frameworks. But the fundamental distinction isn’t just in the tools we use—it’s in why and how we apply them, and that difference is significant.

When compatibilists assert that "people are responsible for their actions even if they could not do otherwise," they lean on a redefinition of responsibility that’s logically inconsistent. If someone could not have acted differently, then holding them morally accountable implies a kind of autonomy that’s simply not there. This contradiction often justifies punitive systems aimed at retribution rather than addressing the actual causes of behavior. While compatibilists may advocate for prevention, their frameworks frequently circle back to individual blame because their conception of responsibility is tied to an illusory "freedom."

Determinists, by contrast, reject this notion of blame entirely. It’s not about assigning fault but about understanding causality. Yes, determinists use restraint when necessary, but not as punishment—it’s about mitigating harm while focusing on the systemic factors that produce criminal behavior in the first place. This isn’t semantics; it’s a shift in priorities. Prevention for determinists isn’t just about "inputs like punishment"; it’s about eliminating the root conditions that create the need for restraint in the first place.

Take your example of punishment as a deterrent. Sure, even determinists acknowledge that the threat of punishment can influence behavior. But this input only works under specific conditions, and it’s far less effective when the root causes of crime—like poverty, mental illness, or lack of education—are unaddressed. The deterministic approach asks why someone is in a position to weigh the risks of punishment in the first place. Fix those underlying causes, and the calculus changes entirely.

As for prevention, I agree that no framework has a "monopoly" on the idea. But determinism grounds prevention in causality, focusing on systemic reform rather than tinkering with superficial inputs. Compatibilists often talk about prevention, but their systems tend to stop short of the structural changes determinism demands because they’re still anchored to the idea of individual moral accountability.

So yes, the actions—restraint, rehabilitation, prevention—may look similar at times. But the rationale, focus, and ultimate goals are profoundly different. Determinists aim not just to manage crime but to dismantle the conditions that create it, while compatibilist frameworks often leave those conditions intact by focusing too heavily on personal blame. Does this distinction help clarify the practical and philosophical differences?

When compatibilists assert that "people are responsible for their actions even if they could not do otherwise," they lean on a redefinition of responsibility that’s logically inconsistent. If someone could not have acted differently, then holding them morally accountable implies a kind of autonomy that’s simply not there. This contradiction often justifies punitive systems aimed at retribution rather than addressing the actual causes of behavior. While compatibilists may advocate for prevention, their frameworks frequently circle back to individual blame because their conception of responsibility is tied to an illusory "freedom."

It's not a redefinition and it's not "logically inconsistent".

It's a recognition that it's impossible for human interactions to function without responsibility.

Everyone holds people responsible for their actions but somehow in the process of thinking and arguing about this, determinists forget that they are doing it. And that they will continue to do it even in a determinist utopia.

You're going to lock and medicate mentally ill people who have absolutely no control over their actions. You know it and everyone else knows it.

'Victims of society' can't go around freely trashing the place.

I don't know why there is a denial of such basic facts.

phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 4:56 pm

When compatibilists assert that "people are responsible for their actions even if they could not do otherwise," they lean on a redefinition of responsibility that’s logically inconsistent. If someone could not have acted differently, then holding them morally accountable implies a kind of autonomy that’s simply not there. This contradiction often justifies punitive systems aimed at retribution rather than addressing the actual causes of behavior. While compatibilists may advocate for prevention, their frameworks frequently circle back to individual blame because their conception of responsibility is tied to an illusory "freedom."

It's not a redefinition and it's not "logically inconsistent".

It's a recognition that it's impossible for human interactions to function without responsibility.

Everyone holds people responsible for their actions but somehow in the process of thinking and arguing about this, determinists forget that they are doing it. And that they will continue to do it even in a determinist utopia.

You're going to lock and medicate mentally ill people who have absolutely no control over their actions. You know it and everyone else knows it.

'Victims of society' can't go around freely trashing the place.

I don't know why there is a denial of such basic facts.

Phyllo, let’s break this down because you’re conflating two very different ideas: practical responses to behavior and the philosophical concept of moral responsibility.

You’re right that human interactions require responses to actions—that’s true in any framework. But the key issue isn’t whether we hold people "responsible" in a pragmatic sense, like restraining someone who poses a threat. It’s whether that responsibility is tied to the notion of moral accountability in the libertarian or compatibilist sense. Determinists reject that traditional notion of moral blame because it’s predicated on the illusion of autonomy—that people could have done otherwise in a meaningful sense.

In a deterministic framework, we absolutely act to prevent harm. Locking up and medicating a dangerous individual, for example, isn’t about punishing them for failing to exercise "free will." It’s about reducing harm and addressing the underlying causes of their behavior—be it mental illness, environmental factors, or social conditions. The goal is pragmatic, not moralistic. This is a critical distinction because it shifts the focus from retribution to systemic reform.

Compatibilists, on the other hand, often blur the lines. They argue that people are "responsible for their actions" even when those actions are fully determined, but then smuggle in the traditional baggage of moral blame. This leads to punitive systems that focus on individual failure instead of addressing root causes. Determinism challenges this by emphasizing causality: if behavior arises from factors outside a person’s control, then blaming them is as pointless as blaming the weather for a storm.

Your claim that determinists "forget" they’re holding people responsible misses the mark. Determinists recognize that restraint, rehabilitation, and even deterrence are necessary responses to harmful actions. The difference is the justification. Determinists aren’t denying reality; we’re challenging the moral assumptions that underpin traditional approaches to justice. It’s not a denial of "basic facts"; it’s an acknowledgment of them and an effort to align our systems with causality.

So, here’s the question back to you: do you agree that moral responsibility, as traditionally understood, loses its coherence under determinism? If not, how do you reconcile holding someone morally accountable for actions they had no genuine control over? Or is it enough for you to justify these actions pragmatically, without invoking the illusion of moral blame?

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm iambiguous, your response is, as always, a labyrinth of thought, weaving determinism, meaning, and epistemological humility into a dense tapestry. Let’s walk through it.

You start by drawing a line between those who acknowledge their perspective as a "more or less educated guess" and those who claim their view as the truth. I share your skepticism toward dogmatism; determinism, as I frame it, doesn’t claim a monopoly on enlightenment.

While determinism as others frame it concludes instead that how you framed it is no less an inherent component of the only possible reality. Enlightenment thus is merely an illusion if you are never able to either be or not be enlightened pertaining to particular sets of circumstances. Some will say that X is an enlightened frame of mind while others will insist it is a benighted frame of mind. But neither one of them were ever able to opt otherwise.

It’s a working model, grounded in causality, and open to refinement. The gaps you highlight—what we don’t know about the brain, the cosmos, or existence itself—don’t undermine determinism but remind us that all understanding is provisional, built on the scaffolding of what’s observable and testable.

How on earth do any of us really know what either undermines or shores up determinism? By, what, exchanging definitions and deductions up in the philosophical clouds?

So, clearly, for each and every one of us, there's a technical leap of faith to one or another set of assumptions regarding the metaphysical parameters of reality itself.

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm On mapping and "the only possible reality," you’re right that even the act of mapping is embedded in determinism. The human brain, as a product of its environment and biology, reflects its own constraints while attempting to explore them. But determinism doesn’t negate the value of this exploration; it’s what allows the system to refine itself. In this sense, mapping isn’t futile; it’s the process through which the deterministic system evolves.

And around and around we go. It's not a question of whether our mapping is or is not futile. After all, in doing so, we come to particular conclusions that result in particular behaviors resulting in particular consequences. But if all of this does unfold given the only possible manner...?

How for all practical purposes are we to wrap our brains around this? And, as always, it is the brain itself that we are relying on to, well, explain the brain itself.

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm The multiverse, if it exists, would simply expand the causal canvas—but it wouldn’t overturn the principle that all events have causes.

Then [for me] back to the part where cause and effect is grappled with, explored, examined, and encompassed in such a way that [for philosophers] they are able to demonstrate how and why what they believe about the cosmos -- https://phys.org/news/2025-01-discovery ... um%20realm. -- reflects what is in fact the case for all reasonable men and women.

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm You point out that reconciling determinism with moral responsibility can feel like an intellectual contortion. I agree. To say someone is "morally responsible" for actions that were wholly determined is to stretch the concept of responsibility into something unrecognizable.

Okay, so how about those who argue the same thing is applicable regarding you posting here? You and only you can post as you and only you. But you could only have posted what you did...so being held responsible for that seems all but essentially meaningless and purposeless.

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm Compatibilists may argue that accountability is still meaningful within a deterministic framework, but I share your suspicion that this often smuggles autonomy back in under a new name. If everything unfolds as it must, then moral judgments become reflections of the causal chain, not universal truths.

Just as in regard to all that we post here? Nothing is excluded in a world where everything we think, feel, intuit, say and do is included in the only possible world there could ever have been?

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm You also ask how dynamism within determinism changes anything. It doesn’t change the fundamental nature of causality, but it does illustrate the complexity of the system. A deterministic system isn’t static; it adapts, processes, and evolves. While this doesn’t grant autonomy, it highlights how varied and intricate deterministic processes can be. A woman’s decision about abortion, for example, is influenced by countless interwoven causes—biological, cultural, and personal. Understanding these factors doesn’t change the determinism but enriches our appreciation of its depth.

An enriched appreciation perhaps but if this appreciation is no less embodied -- experienced -- only as it ever could have been what does it even mean to call it enriched? Either I am of my own volition able to enhance my appreciation of something or I'm appreciating it only as I ever could have.

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm As for meaning, you suggest it could be a psychological illusion, a trick of the mind to make us feel profound. But if meaning is a product of causation, why dismiss it as an illusion?

Because it makes all the difference in the world to most of us that the meaning and purpose we ascribe to the things we choose are manifeststions of autonomy. Otherwise we are just along for the ride.

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm The fact that it arises deterministically doesn’t make it less real. The sunrise isn’t less beautiful because it’s governed by physics, nor is a sense of purpose less meaningful because it emerges from neural processes. Determinism reframes meaning as emergent rather than arbitrary.

Again, if everything emerges in the only possible manner, how does that not include our reaction to it? I appreciate the beautiful sunrise or sunset but what I am thinking and feeling about in regard to them is autonomic. Meaning I was never able to think and to feel otherwise. So, it's not like it can be determined how we ought to act and react regarding anything because we will act and react autonomically.

Only, again, I'm the first to acknowledge that I am not thinking this through correctly. But, if so, there are any number of others "out there" who basically share the same set of assumptions regarding the human brain that "I" do "here and now".

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm Your mention of Pantheism adds an interesting dimension. If the universe has an intrinsic purpose, determinism doesn’t preclude it; it simply asks that purpose be explained through causal mechanisms. Whether purpose is emergent (as I argue) or intrinsic (as Pantheism might suggest), it must ultimately integrate with the deterministic framework—or risk being an unsupported claim.

What does it mean "for all practical purposes" if the universe possesses a teleological component but it is beyond our control?

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm You conclude by emphasizing the manipulation of nature itself, suggesting that human beliefs and gods are simply extensions of this process. I’d agree. If gods and free will exist as concepts, they’re products of the same deterministic forces that shape all human thought. They serve functions—social cohesion, existential comfort—but they don’t transcend the system that created them.

Conceptual assessments here either contain some measure of free will or as with everything else they are no less unfolding in the only possible reality.

BigMike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:33 pm In the end, determinism doesn’t claim to answer every question, but it offers a lens through which we can explore them coherently.

If that works for you, fine. But for any number of others [perhaps] whether it works or not doesn't change a thing...not regarding how any and all material entities unfold mechanically in the only possible universe.

iambiguous wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2025 1:49 am

iambiguous, your response dives deeply into the philosophical labyrinth, as it always does, and I admire your persistence in turning these concepts over and over, trying to see every angle. Let me try to weave through it in a way that brings clarity to your points about determinism, autonomy, and meaning.

When you say that determinism renders enlightenment or enriched appreciation meaningless because we were "never able to opt otherwise," I understand the frustration. It can feel as though determinism reduces every experience, every insight, every emotional response to a kind of preordained inevitability. But that framing oversimplifies what determinism actually entails. Determinism doesn’t flatten reality into a script we merely follow—it describes how complex systems, like our brains, emerge from and adapt to the interplay of countless causes.

Let me offer an analogy. Many people assume that when you swipe across a laptop or phone screen—say, from left to right—the device inherently reacts in a specific, natural way. If I struggle to navigate an app on an iPad or iPhone, they often conclude that I must lack an understanding of how computers work. What baffles them is that I’ve developed four commercial-quality programs on Windows and, before that, on the MS-DOS platform—right down to the last pixel. They find it puzzling, skeptical, or outright doubtful. How, they wonder, can someone who writes precise software not know how to operate an iPhone?

I explain that my difficulty has nothing to do with understanding how the iPhone works. Instead, it’s about not being able to predict the intentions and decisions of the app’s programmer. The app’s behavior is a product of the programmer’s design choices, not some inherent quality of the device itself.

This misunderstanding flips the reality on its head. They think they understand how computers “work,” but they don’t. What they actually know, through repeated use and learning, is how a programmer has chosen their device to respond to inputs. The idea that a computer operates by manipulating 0’s and 1’s to produce outputs—aligning with their expectations—is beyond their grasp. They might know it at a surface level, but they don’t truly understand it.

Similarly, many people know about fundamental conservation laws and the four fundamental interactions, yet they fail to grasp how those “basic” principles can lead to everything that happens in the world, including our thoughts. They believe—and think they understand—that thoughts and feelings exist independently, floating above and beyond the “0’s and 1’s of reality.” To them, the fundamental building blocks of reality—like conservation laws and interactions—are for things like apples and planets, not for human beings.

This brings us back to your struggle with meaning and determinism. People often think that for something to be meaningful, it must exist independently of these fundamental processes. But that’s a misunderstanding. Just as the operation of a phone app is determined by the code written for it, so too are our thoughts, feelings, and experiences determined by the neural pathways etched into our brains by our history and interactions. This doesn’t make them any less profound—it simply situates them within the causal web of the universe.

The deterministic lens doesn’t rob a sunrise of its beauty or a personal epiphany of its depth. It explains why you feel those things, grounded in the cumulative impact of past experiences and the physical reality of your brain’s structure. The neural and synaptic pathways that define your personality are no more separate from the laws of physics than the trajectory of a thrown ball. The difference is complexity—not some mystical "ghost in the machine."

Your point about moral responsibility is also key. Compatibilists often redefine "free will" to align with determinism, but as you rightly note, they frequently smuggle the "free" part back in when discussing accountability. Determinists, however, look beyond blame. The aim isn’t to dismiss actions but to understand their causes. By focusing on those causes—poverty, mental illness, systemic inequities—we can address the roots of harm rather than perpetuate cycles of retribution.

You mention the apparent futility of mapping a deterministic universe. But consider this: mapping isn’t futile because it’s deterministic; it’s essential because it’s deterministic. The map allows the system to refine itself—to understand its own processes and, in doing so, adapt to create outcomes that align with human values. Determinism doesn’t remove meaning from this endeavor; it frames it as an extension of the causal network.

So, does determinism lead to the only possible world? Yes. But within that world is a vast web of interactions that shape and reshape us in response to countless inputs. Your reflections, your questions, and your doubts are part of that web. They don’t float above it; they are its product, as is my response to you now. This isn’t a flaw in the system—it’s the beauty of its complexity. Does this help you see the deterministic framework in a way that doesn’t feel so reductive or constraining?