Philosophy Now Forum

NEW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:30 pm Can this "absolute" and "relative" understanding you talk about, by any chance be compared with the "relevance and relativity" factor I noticed within everyone? (more news around this later perhaps).

I don't know what you mean by the "relevance and relativity" factor, in what sense?

Dam's experience of going beyond dual thought ...being shared on NEW's thread.

As a young 5 year old child I remember asking myself ''Who am I'' ? ..I don't know why this question arose, but I think I was born to be a very curious child that was astounded at this sense of being and wanted to know how on earth I this child just suddenly popped up out of nowhere, so I wanted to know where I came from, it was almost like I was annoyed because I kind of knew that I would never know or have any idea of ever knowing...Then some answers came to mind. One answer was that I sensed I was LIGHT because everything was light, I could SEE a whole world in front of my eyes, but I did not understand HOW i came to be in this place, and so I tried to imagine a place of total blank nothingness, but I could not, I could only know this LIGHT world, and so in that moment, another sudden thought came to me, which informed me that if I was here now, then I must have always been here now.

Then around the age of 20..straight out of the blue, I had a full blown epiphany awakening. I had a collision with the infinite, I saw that I was Awareness itself, the empty perfection of the true Self. I saw that I was the witness of my thoughts, which is consciousness, and that the witness was prior to the conscious self of 'me' I knew to be knowledge. Then I thought about the days before knowledge, the days of me being a baby where no knowledge of my self existence existed, and yet I did. So I questioned ''WHO'' is this 'who' who is existing? and that's when it hit me really full on. In that moment I dropped my name, this sense of me, this knowledge of me, and saw the real me, and it was then that I knew the truth, and it took my breath away, in that moment I knew that I didn't know anything at all as I moved into a place beyond thought, beyond space, beyond time, a place that is no place, where the truth of reality ACTUALLY IS, beyond all theories, words, or ideas about it.

I saw that all proofs of my real being existed within that direct experience of this one Awareness, which is always within who I am, it's this pure Awareness my true Self. And I saw that it was not even mine, there was no ''my self''. I saw that there was no Self because there was no other than Self. I saw Awareness itself, the empty perfection of true Self.

Then ever since that awakening, I have just got on with living life as a human being, doing what human beings do.
I also felt blessed to be given two of the most vital organs..two feet, so that I could have one foot in the world and the other out of it, and saw that was having the best of both worlds...and that awareness is what gives me a constant buzz !! knowing that I've only got one foot in this loony bin...so to speak!

.

Atla wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:45 pm

NEW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:30 pm Can this "absolute" and "relative" understanding you talk about, by any chance be compared with the "relevance and relativity" factor I noticed within everyone? (more news around this later perhaps).

I don't know what you mean by the "relevance and relativity" factor, in what sense?

Apologies, had no time trying to explain. But this rang a bell to something I have been working on. Something called relevance-relative factors concerning everyone; individually, other and within a certain structure (society).

the rough explanation of it in a nutshell is that every life has value, hence the relevance factor, but also a relative factor, cause one very relevant thing for one, could very well be irrelevant towards the other,
Also, every life has a journey, and within that life those relevance-relativity factors are constantly evolving, within themselves, and with the environment.

I don't know if that explains things enough...it's a wip (work in progress).

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:49 pm Dam's experience of going beyond dual thought ...being shared on NEW's thread.

As a young 5 year old child I remember asking myself ''Who am I'' ? ..I don't know why this question arose, but I think I was born to be a very curious child that was astounded at this sense of being and wanted to know how on earth I this child just suddenly popped up out of nowhere, so I wanted to know where I came from, it was almost like I was annoyed because I kind of knew that I would never know or have any idea of ever knowing...Then some answers came to mind. One answer was that I sensed I was LIGHT because everything was light, I could SEE a whole world in front of my eyes, but I did not understand HOW i came to be in this place, and so I tried to imagine a place of total blank nothingness, but I could not, I could only know this LIGHT world, and so in that moment, another sudden thought came to me, which informed me that if I was here now, then I must have always been here now.

Then around the age of 20..straight out of the blue, I had a full blown epiphany awakening. I had a collision with the infinite, I saw that I was Awareness itself, the empty perfection of the true Self. I saw that I was the witness of my thoughts, which is consciousness, and that the witness was prior to the conscious self of 'me' I knew to be knowledge. Then I thought about the days before knowledge, the days of me being a baby where no knowledge of my self existence existed, and yet I did. So I questioned ''WHO'' is this 'who' who is existing? and that's when it hit me really full on. In that moment I dropped my name, this sense of me, this knowledge of me, and saw the real me, and it was then that I knew the truth, and it took my breath away, in that moment I knew that I didn't know anything at all as I moved into a place beyond thought, beyond space, beyond time, a place that is no place, where the truth of reality ACTUALLY IS, beyond all theories, words, or ideas about it.

I saw that all proofs of my real being existed within that direct experience of this one Awareness, which is always within who I am, it's this pure Awareness my true Self. And I saw that it was not even mine, there was no ''my self''. I saw that there was no Self because there was no other than Self. I saw Awareness itself, the empty perfection of true Self.

Then ever since that awakening, I have just got on with living life as a human being, doing what human beings do.
I also felt blessed to be given two of the most vital organs..two feet, so that I could have one foot in the world and the other out of it, and saw that was having the best of both worlds...and that awareness is what gives me a constant buzz !! knowing that I've only got one foot in this loony bin...so to speak!

.

many thanks

Could I ask some questions around this? This light, did it show or let you feel anything that was "bad" or discomforting?
And by any chance have you ever felt warmth as well? physically, or mentally, as some kind of comforting blanket that keeps the cold a way,
or comfort, having had such an experience?

Could you, partly thanks to this experience, answer if mankind basically is good?

Atla wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:28 am They try to fully get rid of the individual ego, some of them even get into the psychosis of thinking that they are channeling the Great self. Some posters on this forum have ended up in such traps, they may even want to remain trapped there as a form of escapism, and maybe out of spite. I mean one CAN do that, it's their life, but it sure doesn't look like the optimal way.

The optimal way is probably to choose to live as the "genuine fake". You retain some of your ego, some of your identification with your ego, while also knowing deep down, what's actually going on. It's the best of "both worlds", you get to remain a human in one way, and you also get to be "it". Why choose one over the other, when we can have both (and in fact we are always both). It takes some time and skill to reconcile the two.

Agreed.

I think balance is essential for some of the greatest joy and clarity amidst ALL that we are part of. For example:

> Seeing "all" flowing as one with brilliant creativity (which is perfect beyond human judgments and desires), while also embracing and engaging in life on this physical plane/Earth.

> Loving as much as you can from wherever you are, while also facing off against rigid and dark energies.

> Being continually open to expanding discoveries, understanding, and insights, while questioning authority and authenticity.

None of this requires any kind of religious mindset or particular discipline, and there could be even greater clarity and freedom without limited practices.

NEW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:43 pm
many thanks

You're welcome.

NEW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:43 pmCould I ask some questions around this? This light, did it show or let you feel anything that was "bad" or discomforting?

When I refer to this light, I'm talking in the context of it showing itself as (a sense of being alive/awake.. as opposed to be unaware or asleep) and so yes, for me, the light would be described as being like in a state when I was aware of myself, and aware of thoughts and feelings. Mainly though, this sense of self also showed itself to be automatic and spontaneous whereby it would instinctively know to defend and protect itself when presented with danger to it's life or wellbeing.
In essence, this sense of self was only concerned for it's wellbeing as if that was it's natural state. Which later proved to be true. In that the natural state is perfect wellbeing or for want of a better word 'equilibrium' was the natural state of being, the kind of state that is naturally already present in animals, but for humans, this state is often overlooked due to the human sense of separation, and so for humans, it can be found in deep meditation, or it can just spontaneously arise while taking a nice gentle stroll in nature.

NEW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:43 pmAnd by any chance have you ever felt warmth as well? physically, or mentally, as some kind of comforting blanket that keeps the cold a way,
or comfort, having had such an experience?

Yes, I have experienced profound feelings of warmth, manifesting as like a never before surge of extremely exquisite positive energy that would spontaneously sweep over me like warm sweet smelling aromic bath water, and it was like being bathed in pure warm light accompanied by a real sense of knowing that everything was going to be alright. This (pure love) event happened to me once during a time in my life when I was suddenly plunged into an adverse traumatic and deeply stressful state. And so the reason I've mentioned this to you, is to tell you that this feeling of (pure love) became known to me via my own personal direct experience, which I believe I had to go through as part of my personal spiritual awakening, it was an event that led me to see my actual self realisation came bursting out and I could suddenly see more clearly that I could no way be what I thought was a physically and mentally broken human being, instead I was shown something more beautiful. I'm kind of talking about the dark night of the soul experience, or the human existential crisis that comes with feeling like an isolated separate self....which is just an illusion, and that the real self lay beyond that illusory separate self.


So for me, this darkness was the kind of experience where everything changed and my world as I once knew it was turned completely up-side-down where I felt as though I was at rock bottom, and that the only way out, was to climb up. I was never overwhelmed by this event in my life, and looking back, it was the best thing that ever happened to me, it taught me everything I needed to know about myself, it taught me to love myself unconditionally in such a way that I would never be dependant on other people or things to make me happy, and that only I was responsible for my own personal wellbeing. I finally grew up, I was finally home, and at one with everything and everyone, I was finally comfortable in my own skin...and did not care anymore about what other people thought of me, ...I was free, to be me, even if that meant being seen as a crazy insane nutter, or whatever..it didn't matter, because deep down I knew it was ok to be what ever I wanted to be. In truth, I saw that I was a loving, kind, decent caring good person, and I thought to myself, yes this is who I want to live with, I like this person, this person is who I am and want to be, this person is who I've always been and I knew that no one else could ever convince me otherwise, or take that away from me.... I'll leave it there for now.

NEW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:43 pmCould you, partly thanks to this experience, answer if mankind basically is good?

Yes, because feeling good is good, whereas the opposite is repelled, and that which is repelled is never an ideal state to feel.
So in my opinion, the most basic and natural state of being is GOODNESS....and that all sentient creatures, or other animate and inanimate appearances tend to live from that fundamental premise.

.

Many thanks, again dam,

for trying to explain this, although there are really no words for it (been there, it's like trying to explain love, or life)

And this despite my critiques around this, that I still stick to, nevertheless.

You have my sincere gratitude for opening up this way.

More info perhaps later.

NEW wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 10:13 am Many thanks, again dam,

for trying to explain this, although there are really no words for it (been there, it's like trying to explain love, or life)

And this despite my critiques around this, that I still stick to, nevertheless.

You have my sincere gratitude for opening up this way.

More info perhaps later.

Thanks NEW...I feel safe opening up to your thread topic because it speaks to my heart, and is why I am able to sense a genuine presence in you that's going to be of an appreciative nature to peoples genuine honesty. I sense an open and loving person in you, and not someone who's only agenda is to thrash the living daylights out of another persons point of view, that is only ever their true and direct experience anyway...and i think you get that, so thanks for being attentitive to the many responses you get on your own thread and giving everyone fair attention , and for your patience and understanding.

And yeah, I agree with you, there are really no words to describe nonduality, in that words are crap when it comes to this topic, but hey, divine crap in my opinion.

no worries, and thanks for the compliment.
I was asking for info around this; and got back much more then I expected, thanks to all that contributed
Food for thought, and it turned out quite the bite, and experience

I did this small thought experiment around "acceptance" and going too deep in it, like I mentioned before, generates for instance too much passivity:
and out came my moral compass simply automatically, like a spring, rejecting going too deep in it.

And saying that it is my ego, just isn't true, it's more my consciousness speaking,

You see, I'm also more of a wanderer around these, and many other things...and I think my base is more within the not knowing, wandering around things, finding a shelter for a while to rest and call my home, only to keep on wandering on the next moment, I think that is my true home really ...

anyway, I think I know what you mean dam, and I really appreciate your insight into this, cause I can also confirm a lot of what you are trying to say.
And I'm glad you have found your home

NEW wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:09 pm
Food for thought, and it turned out quite the bite, and experience

Yeah, for sure, the proof of experience is in the pudding. There's nothing more real, true and direct than this immediate presence.
In which the image of who I AM appears, for I have no other way of seeing who or what I AM. Empty fullness is who I AM

NEW wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:09 pmI did this small thought experiment around "acceptance" and going too deep in it, like I mentioned before, generates for instance too much passivity:
and out came my moral compass simply automatically, like a spring, rejecting going too deep in it.

I get that, it's like a spring forward, fall back kind of thing, yet it's all just the same one spring springing. From source to source an endless spring

NEW wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:09 pmAnd saying that it is my ego, just isn't true, it's more my consciousness speaking,

Yes, it's all consciousness.

NEW wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:09 pmYou see, I'm also more of a wanderer around these, and many other things...and I think my base is more within the not knowing, wandering around things, finding a shelter for a while to rest and call my home, only to keep on wandering on the next moment, I think that is my true home really ...

Our true home is homelessness. As soon as you try to take root, you have in essence evicted yourself from the infinite flow...there really is nowhere to hang stake your here, because you are this infinite boundlessness of being which is freedom always.

NEW wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:09 pmanyway, I think I know what you mean dam, and I really appreciate your insight into this, cause I can also confirm a lot of what you are trying to say.
And I'm glad you have found your home

You're always welcome home anytime
See you around.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 8:22 am

NEW wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:09 pmYou see, I'm also more of a wanderer around these, and many other things...and I think my base is more within the not knowing, wandering around things, finding a shelter for a while to rest and call my home, only to keep on wandering on the next moment, I think that is my true home really ...

Our true home is homelessness. As soon as you try to take root, you have in essence evicted yourself from the infinite flow...there really is nowhere to hang stake your here, because you are this infinite boundlessness of being which is freedom always.

yep Especially around this, in my case.
Some say take root and stop running away, (while that isn't the case, quite the contrary, it's tackling one of the key issues of mankind)

Taking root in any convictions, or club, political party, philosophical definition ... makes you acceptable to be molded into something you are not: your self, that is grander then just the definition, mold you place yourself in.



And this reminded me to something else, said by the same man; that consciousness isn't a fixed place, or point, practice or whatever, it is indeed a continuous flow or process.

often I describe it with the path of the butterfly, wandering off from flower to flower

--

I just knew it, deep down, that my mental breakdown was hiding a treasure, a blessing in disguise
Much gratitude to all contributed, to let me find that one out

NEW wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 10:25 pm
yep Especially around this, in my case.
Some say take root and stop running away, (while that isn't the case, quite the contrary, it's tackling one of the key issues of mankind)

Taking root in any convictions, or club, political party, philosophical definition ... makes you acceptable to be molded into something you are not: your self, that is grander then just the definition, mold you place yourself in.

I know exactly what you mean... like running away only to find yourself running around inside one of those revolving doors, going nowhere.
Reminds me of the Groucho Marx quote: - '' I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member '' well now, that is the funniest thing I evva hoid!!

NEW wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 10:25 pm

Love this quote. Never a truer word spoken.

NEW wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 10:25 pmAnd this reminded me to something else, said by the same man; that consciousness isn't a fixed place, or point, practice or whatever, it is indeed a continuous flow or process.

often I describe it with the path of the butterfly, wandering off from flower to flower

Oh yeah, me too !

NEW wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 10:25 pmI just knew it, deep down, that my mental breakdown was hiding a treasure, a blessing in disguise
Much gratitude to all contributed, to let me find that one out

Very good, and you know it's ok to be a total clownshoe looney nut-job cos the real truth is far removed from what thought thinks it is, it's the complete opposite.

What we call the Self is not a soul-like thing, nor is it a state. It is the uninterrupted flow of life. We cannot apprehend it with these faculties we use every day, such as impressions, feelings or memory. All of that belongs to a fractional, objective point of view. We cannot think of it because we are it.

In that silence, which is beatitude, directed energies such as concepts of time, space and individual memory leave no trace. All things are lost in consciousness, but consciousness is not lost in them. In this way seeming activities go on, yet we remain firmly established in our true being.

.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 6:39 am

NEW wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 10:25 pmI just knew it, deep down, that my mental breakdown was hiding a treasure, a blessing in disguise
Much gratitude to all contributed, to let me find that one out

Very good, and you know it's ok to be a total clownshoe looney nut-job cos the real truth is far removed from what thought thinks it is, it's the complete opposite.

What we call the Self is not a soul-like thing, nor is it a state. It is the uninterrupted flow of life. We cannot apprehend it with these faculties we use every day, such as impressions, feelings or memory. All of that belongs to a fractional, objective point of view. We cannot think of it because we are it.

In that silence, which is beatitude, directed energies such as concepts of time, space and individual memory leave no trace. All things are lost in consciousness, but consciousness is not lost in them. In this way seeming activities go on, yet we remain firmly established in our true being.

.

We cannot think of it because we are it

just like a fish, surrounded by water, or man, surrounded by air ...

Man, this is amazing ...for the longest time I thought this was indeed an "illness" (although some aspects are), and I thought about curing me could enable me to go back and simply continue, like going back in time, rather impossible .

But the fact was that I jumped trough the membrane of perceived, culturally accepted reality, and I was simply not ready to handle it.
(that's probably why I showed you this video of job hopkins - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sk0uDbM5lc and the story about the cave )

and just like going back in time, it's rather impossible to undo the experience you had of going trough that membrane ...

it's ok to be a total clownshoe looney nut-job

hihi, I have no trouble with that, cause I'm a content wise player, but I still think it's a pity others might see it that way though

Why? some reasons pop up:
- I was always at service to others, like a designer is, in search of solutions, and these kind of reactions simply means they are not ready for it
- and it also means they are simply deny themselves in a way, by calling another crazy.

But ooh well,

consider yourself blessed dam, for seeing this early in your life, so you could handle it way better,
and just like in that other post, many thanks to your assistance, offering some peace to me, and possibly others who stumble upon this.

it's ok to be a total clownshoe looney nut-job

NEW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:15 pmhihi, I have no trouble with that, cause I'm a content wise player, but I still think it's a pity others might see it that way though

Why? some reasons pop up:
- I was always at service to others, like a designer is, in search of solutions, and these kind of reactions simply means they are not ready for it
- and it also means they are simply deny themselves in a way, by calling another crazy.

But ooh well,

consider yourself blessed dam, for seeing this early in your life, so you could handle it way better,
and just like in that other post, many thanks to your assistance, offering some peace to me, and possibly others who stumble upon this.

Thanks for sharing y(our) awakening experiences NEW.

Other people are only throwing rocks at the mirror of their own mind, so all these so called tit-for-tat responses are in essence just echoes of the one same self..they are like water off a ducks back anyway. Seeking attention is always better than being ignored, it's the nature of duality. No one likes to go unnoticed.

Have you heard the Fable of the Scorpion and the Frog?

This fable is a classic meta4 for how the human mind works in conjunction with what it projects as being external to it... which is to identify with it's own projected self bias storyline as being the only way it can see and know itself, since it has no other identity whatsoever without this projection screen.


''A scorpion asks a frog to carry him over a river. The frog is afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, both would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog then agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature."

It's like the thorn and the rose are one and the same being, and just when you start to get all engrossed in the exquisite beauty of this flower - the thorn jumps out wanting to get in on the action as well, and we all know what a thorn in the ass feels like...and so attention placed soley on the thorny part rather than what is beyond the thorn, is the key to unlocking what is the real and true beauty of life itself.

Have a nice day.

.

Atla wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:45 pm

NEW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:30 pm Can this "absolute" and "relative" understanding you talk about, by any chance be compared with the "relevance and relativity" factor I noticed within everyone? (more news around this later perhaps).

I don't know what you mean by the "relevance and relativity" factor, in what sense?

It's not rocket science. Maybe you should find a dictionary?