Wonkers and Israel

[Iwannaplato]

Haredim & Zionism

The fringe position of Neturei Karta:

It would still be false to say Orthodox Jews oppose the state of Israel, period.

Most Heredi Orthodox cannot support Zionism for that one core reason. Zionism “forced the issue” and is “rebellion” against Jewish fate.

They may live in Israel though (or not) but they have a problematic relationship with the political state.

Yes, those Orthodox (and other kinds of Jews) who are anti-zionist. But his statement was still false and poorly argued.

Cont. Wiki page:

There are a number of Haredi groups which not only oppose Zionism, but also do not recognize the State of Israel. Among them are the Hasidic sects of Shomer Emunim (and its offshoots, Toldos Aharon, and Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok), Mishkenos HoRoim, and Dushinsky. In July 1947, Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of the Jerusalem-based Edah HaChareidis, declared to the United Nations his "definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine". The largest anti-Zionist Hasidic group is Satmar, which has around 100,000 adherents worldwide. The group's position was crystallized by their charismatic leader, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, who authored comprehensive and polemic tracts detailing his opposition to Zionism. He encouraged his followers who live in the "Holy Land" to form self-sufficient communities, rejecting social state benefits, and not to vote in general elections. Anxious not to be viewed as supportive of the actions of the Israeli government, which he viewed as an abomination, he instructed his people not to visit the Western Wall and other holy sites which had been captured by Israel in the 1967 war.

Yes, there are many Jews - I think those mentioned above by name are dead - who oppose Zionism. There are Orthodox Jews who are anti-zionist. and there are certainly many secular, reformed and conservative Jews who are also.

He was using one guy not living in Israel in an appeal to authority, as if it demonstrated his position on the State of Israel. I pointed this out.

I would say I am anti-Zionist, though not Jewish. I get tired of all the facile, fallacious arguments on both sides.

[Alexis Jacobi]

It would still be false to say Orthodox Jews oppose the state of Israel, period.

Of course you are right.

But the most interesting part of this, as it pertains to core beliefs, is: a) God gave Israel to the Jews, b) God took Israel from the Jews through the Exile (Galut), and c) only God and
mashiach* can restore Israel — all this according to strict (or thorough) Orthodox belief.

And that is the reason why those groups oppose the state (as an “abomination”).

Non-Haredi Jews, Reform Jews, and non-practicing Jews are only vaguely or peripherally involved in the central tenets of Judaism. The atheistic Jew is a special case since he doesn’t refer to any metaphysical authority.

*The mashiach will be a great political leader descended by a pure male line from King David (Jeremiah 23,5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (The Mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11,2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military figure who will win battles for Israel, freeing the Jews of foreign domination and establishing a Torah-based kingdom in Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33,15). But above all, he will be a fully normal human being, not a god, demi-god, or other supernatural being.

[Age]

Become relevant, Age, or else just shut up. Your garbage is going to destroy us all. LISTEN TO ME.

'This' here seems rather VERY HYPOCRITICAL. But 'each to their own', as some say.

Then stop being a hypocrite, Age. Problem solved.

What do 'you' think or believe I am being a hypocrite in regards to here "gary childress"?

[Age]

I pray you two never wake up and experience what will happen if you don't listen to those who ought to be listened to.

WHO are 'they' here who ought to be listened to, EXACTLY, "gary childress"?

[Walker]

You're a waste of space, Walker. The world would be better off without your nonsense. You are the poster child for when opposition and defiance become DISORDERS. Just shut up. The world doesn't need your garbage. Or continue to pollute the world. People like you will be the end of all of us. Fortunately for you, I am not suggesting to you to self-destruct, only that you change your tune, kiddo.

Fortunately for you ... you have much for which to be fortunate. Oh yes, much. Count your blessings.

[Walker]

WHO are 'they' here who ought to be listened to, EXACTLY, "gary childress"?

He's always getting excited about some guy named Chompsky. Probably that guy.

[Walker]

There are many Jews minutely categorized.

Hamas wants them all dead.

[Age]

WHO are 'they' here who ought to be listened to, EXACTLY, "gary childress"?

He's always getting excited about some guy named Chompsky. Probably that guy.

Okay. Thank you "walker".

[Age]

There are many Jews minutely categorized.

Hamas wants them all dead.

And WHY would a 'group of human beings' WANT "another group of human beings' ALL DEAD?

[Alexis Jacobi]

“The best deceivers are those who are self-deceived.” — Robert Trivers

[Walker]

There are many Jews minutely categorized.

Hamas wants them all dead.

And WHY would a 'group of human beings' WANT "another group of human beings' ALL DEAD?

Because of irrational bigotry, prejudice, and ignorance, and a healthy dose of arrogance that self-justifies murder.

Because they think they should have the planetary space that the other group is wasting just because they exist, and because they think the other group is going to be the end of everyone.

They think these things because they’ve been indoctrinated to hatefully deceive themselves from the cradle to the grave, and project bushels of bullshit to self-justify their evil ways.

There are probably a few more reasons.

[Walker]

Okay. Thank you "walker".

You're quite welcome, Age. Have a very good day.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Those who genuinely believe something, who have absorbed it and made it a part of themselves, are the most adept at convincing others that it is true.

That “belief”, even if irrational, negates and overrides a careful, thoughtful analysis — that which has the potential to reveal what is true — and thus the “belief” is really a deceiving mythology.

The present “Jewish Story” about Israel and on-going events, an interpretation broadcast everywhere and demanding assent (or else!) is grounded in mythology. It is counter-historical and formed in a novelist’s crucible not on a genuine historian’s anvil.

“The best deceivers are those who are self-deceived.”

[Alexis Jacobi]

Don’t hesitate to reach out to me if I can assist in the navigation of treacherous ideological territories.

[Walker]

“The best deceivers are those who are self-deceived.” — Robert Trivers

You just may be deceiving yourself as far as who is demanding what, given all the pro-Terrorist demonstrations going on throughout the world right now in defense of the Terroristic atrocities that were specifically targeting children, women, the elderly, and done with the purpose of shocking the world and instigating a retaliation by Israel.

The worldwide, organized demonstrations are in defense of those who committed the atrocities, and in defense of those Terrorists who committed those crimes against humanity. Those demonstrations are demanding an immediate cease fire by everyone, including Israel, in order to spare the Terrorists. Or else!

You just may be deceiving yourself as to what is relevant in this situation, and it ain't the Crusades, Freedom Fighter.



The focus of your attention just may be counter to the relevance of what's happen' now, as history repeats yet again, thanks to a weak US president overriding all the good that a strong US President orchestrated with artful deals, and thanks to those same Iran-funding idiots pulling Biden's strings, those Democrats Who Hate America, who overrode the ME Peace orchestrated by that strong deal making president, the one who the tyrants feared because of his calculated unpredictability, the one who makes peaceful deals based on mutual trade benefit, and who did not make wars like Biden and his backers do.