Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

[Iwannaplato]

Because the Determinists think they're Righteous by being unthinking followers.

Same with SJWs.

None of them realize they're being led by Leaders. Modern marketing and public relations effectively hypnotize the masses into subconscious actions and compulsions.

You just made an argument for determinism

These people do not believe in Free-Will. You can agree to this much right?

If they don't realize they are being controlled they likely believe they are free.

[Wizard22]

What?

"Determinists are always "passing the buck", absolving themselves of Sin or Evil, and misappropriating undeserved Goodness to themselves. It's a "morality when convenient" approach—Hypocrisy."

Free-Willists cannot do this. It would absolve their free-will.

[Wizard22]

We're talking about free will in a philosophical context in the Metaphysics subforum. That means we are talking not about politics and restrictions, etc., but rather we are talking about whether freedom exists ontologically.

BigMike, who made this thread, asked how Free-Will affects morals and characters. So by extension, it includes politics and restrictions.

IOW could I truly have chosen to walk home from school with my friends and also have chosen to walk home alone because I was angry. Could either one of those things have happened?

A determinist thinks that only one decision could have been made regardless of how it felt to you.
A person who believes in free will thinks that either of those things could have happened and that the past does not utterly determine the next moment.

I know that.

Children and teenagers are unable to differentiate between the two, I believe. Free-Will is a rare belief in the populace, not common.

You are incorrect. The majority believe in Free Will.

I disagree.

By my experience, the vast majority are Determinists, and actively against Free-Will.

Even count the Determinists in this thread. Who believes in Free-Will here? Me. Henry. Age. 3 of how many others in this thread? The majority, right here, are Determinists. It's this apparent.

[Wizard22]

If they don't realize they are being controlled they likely believe they are free.

Yes, they have a false belief. That doesn't mean they're Free-Will-ists.

[Iwannaplato]

If they don't realize they are being controlled they likely believe they are free.

Yes, they have a false belief. That doesn't mean they're Free-Will-ists.

Have you ever asked one? Why do you assume they don't believe in free will especially if you think they are being controlled without their knowledge? And why does a determinist think they can be controlled? It seems you do not believe in free will.

[Flannel Jesus]

What?

"Determinists are always "passing the buck", absolving themselves of Sin or Evil, and misappropriating undeserved Goodness to themselves. It's a "morality when convenient" approach—Hypocrisy."

Free-Willists cannot do this. It would absolve their free-will.

Seems more like you have a personal gripe with some particular determinists, rather than a factual disagreement with the position.

[Wizard22]

Of course I don't "seem like" a Free-Willist to both of you who are Determinists.

How would you know what a Free-Willist looks like, thinks like, acts like?

Don't both of you believe that Free-Will is literally, physically impossible?

I mean...what hoops would I have to jump through, to prove Free-Will?

[Iwannaplato]

BigMike, who made this thread, asked how Free-Will affects morals and characters. So by extension, it includes politics and restrictions.

No, he is asking how the believe in metaphysical free will affects morals and character. He's not talking about how freedom in a political sense affects those things. He is not talking about people's beliefs in political freedom affect morals and character.

IOW could I truly have chosen to walk home from school with my friends and also have chosen to walk home alone because I was angry. Could either one of those things have happened?

A determinist thinks that only one decision could have been made regardless of how it felt to you.
A person who believes in free will thinks that either of those things could have happened and that the past does not utterly determine the next moment.

I know that.

Children and teenagers are unable to differentiate between the two, I believe. Free-Will is a rare belief in the populace, not common.

You're wrong. Most people resist the idea that they could not have done several different things at a given moment. They believe they could have gone either way on all sorts of decisions.

You are incorrect. The majority believe in Free Will.

I disagree.

By my experience, the vast majority are Determinists, and actively against Free-Will.

Rubbish. Show me some evidence.

Even count the Determinists in this thread.

Right the participants in one thread in a philosophy forum is a great bit of evidence. I don't believe in determinism, but you probably assumed I did.

[Iwannaplato]

Of course I don't "seem like" a Free-Willist to both of you who are Determinists.

I'm not a determinist.

How would you know what a Free-Willist looks like, thinks like, acts like?

They wouldn't say that thousands of people are controlled by the media. They would consider those people able to not be controlled.

Henry, for example, wouldn't say that. He would say they chose to go along and were not controlled.

Don't both of you believe that Free-Will is literally, physically impossible?

I mean...what hoops would I have to jump through, to prove Free-Will?

Yeah, let's hallucinate a future problem.

Honestly I think you jumped into a discussion you don't really understand the context of.
I don't think you notice when you put forward determinist beliefs in your own writing.

I'll FJ point out some of the other confusions.....

[Iwannaplato]

Do most people believe in Free will?
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ta ... ting%20nay.

Specifically, the breakdown has 59 percent endorsing the idea that free will exists and 41 percent voting nay.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ple%20hold.

Most people believe in free will. Whether this belief is warranted or not, free will beliefs (FWB) are foundational for many legal systems and reducing FWB has effects on behavior from the motor to the social level. This raises the important question as to which specific FWB people hold.

Wizard is also confusing political and social freedom with metaphysical freedom. He denied it when it is pointed out, but a read of his posts shows otherwise.

[Flannel Jesus]

Of course I don't "seem like" a Free-Willist to both of you who are Determinists.

How would you know what a Free-Willist looks like, thinks like, acts like?

Don't both of you believe that Free-Will is literally, physically impossible?

I mean...what hoops would I have to jump through, to prove Free-Will?

You could start by describing what you mean by free will. Libertarian free will? Compatibilist free will?

How do you think you could prove free will?

[Wizard22]

This is the name of the thread: "Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?" Morals and Character include politics and real world decisions.

I'm not going to put a 24-7 camcorder on to prove to you my life experiences. I'll take your word for it. Most people, in your environment, believe in Free-Will. Okay...mind telling me where you live? This is a British philosophy forum, is it not? British Isles? The British people, again from my experience, don't seem too particularly Libertine or Free-Will-ish. I can be wrong; that's fine.

[Wizard22]

"the idea that free will exists"

You seem to miss "the idea" part, as-if, Free-Will is a pure hypothetical.

And you just criticized me for misunderstanding?? How did I notice that small note and you overlooked it?


You just admitted that most people view Free-Will as a type of fantasy, and, NOT real.

[Wizard22]

You could start by describing what you mean by free will. Libertarian free will? Compatibilist free will?

How do you think you could prove free will?

Does freedom exist? Is one creature or organism 'freer' than another? A chicken can't fly so well. A hawk, duck, sparrow, can fly much better by comparison. A hawk is 'freer' to fly. The hawk will perceive a human, unable to fly, as less free. So freedom is relative to Ability. But a hawk, and a human, cannot swim as freely as a fish, a dolphin, a shark. Again this is another point to remark the general relativity of Freedom.

Free is measured by Ability.

What is will(power)? Through the course of this thread, what people 'will' do is driven first by Need and second by Want. Thus most people agree that being hungry, and willing to eat, is not a "Choice" in the conventional sense. But what you Want to eat, is a choice. Thus Willpower defaults to the Secondary wants, not the Primary needs. This is where 'Determinists' get caught up on the details. Determinists are focused on "Needs". Free-Willists are often focused on the "Wants", pertaining to Will.

How do you measure a person's Willpower? Assume there's a snow storm, a blizzard, that you must travel through. Person A will give up at the first sign of discomfort or trouble, turn around and go home. Person B will trudge along much deeper, maybe even going so far that he or she may die in the snow storm. This is where Free-Will is poignant. Person B has a choice, continue further, or turn around. Person C, has great willpower, and will not give up under any condition, risking death doesn't even cross his or her mind. Person C has the most Willpower, the most Will, the most 'umph!' in terms of progression. Perhaps they all survive. Perhaps none of them do.


Since Freedom exists, and since Willpower exists, Free-Will must exist by definition and extension of these terms.

Any disagreement then, is a disagreement of framing the definitions.

In order for a Determinist to "get rid of" Free-Will, you'd need to cancel ALL freedom and cancel ALL willpower. Since this is impossible, Determinism is an illogical, and irrational category of thought. It's not based on reality.

[Flannel Jesus]

Everything you described above looks very much like a compatibilist form of free will. I also believe in a sort of compatibilist free will. Perhaps we disagree less than you think.