Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

[popeye1945]

do you want Free-Will, or not??

It really makes no difference because people will act the same way whether they have free-will or not.

They will respond to a situation to the best of their ability.

Respond is the keyword. To respond is to react, consistent with a reactive organism. All physical endeavors must first be motivated, and motivation spell's reactions. To react, one must make the desired motivation one's own will to fulfill in the outer world. There is no place for free will in this process, to have free will, one must be the source of one's own motivation, but that motivation always comes from the physical world as the cause of one's reactions.

[Wizard22]

It really makes no difference because people will act the same way whether they have free-will or not.

They will respond to a situation to the best of their ability.

To me that's similar to claiming "people will act the same way whether they believe in God or not", which is simply not true.

Those who believe in God (or Free-Will) act in vastly and distinctly different ways than those who do not.

[Wizard22]

To answer the OP directly, after reading the entirety of this thread, I do believe that belief in Free-Will does directly affect morals and character. Because a person who believes in Free-Will must, by definition and necessity, believe in self-responsibility and accountability of choices he or she as an individual makes, along with its intended and unintended consequences.

Those who do not believe in Free-Will, are therefore not burdened by such consequences. A Determinist does not *NEED* to be accountable for him/herself, or others. A Determinist merely "goes with the flow" of life. The majority of humanity are Determinists, and represent Determinism, by how the masses unthinkingly and unquestionably follow their perceived Authorities and their executive commands.

Determinists make good Followers, good "Sheeple".

A defense of Determinism, is also a defense of the unthinking, unquestioning nature of these 'sheeple'.

[Wizard22]

I believe that Free-Will-ists can understand the mind and mentality of Determinists, but Determinists cannot understand the mind and mentality of Free-Will-ists. This is a one-way street in terms of morality.

Why? Because Free-Will-ism is a trait of Leadership, not of unthinking following. A follower (aka. Determinist) simply doesn't know what it's like to... be free... to lead... to be independent... to be accountable for oneself... to command others ...to make mistakes ...etc. Determinists are always "passing the buck", absolving themselves of Sin or Evil, and misappropriating undeserved Goodness to themselves. It's a "morality when convenient" approach—Hypocrisy. Free-Willists, on the other hand, must adhere to Logic and Rationality, and therefore could not "pick and choose" when Good and Evil suits him or herself.

[Flannel Jesus]

That all just seems like something you would say if you didn't actually speak to determinists. It sounds like what Christians say about atheists. "How possibly could anyone be moral if they don't agree with me?"

[Wizard22]

It's the other way around though.

It's the determinists who don't want to imagine what it's like to be free.

The free-will-ists know what it's like to be un-free, and have no intent on going backward.

[Iwannaplato]

It's the other way around though.

It's the determinists who don't want to imagine what it's like to be free.

Given that most people experience themselves as free (within whatever range life permits) and it's the default experience of making choices, could have done that, nearly did it but then I went with option B, etc, most determinists would have experienced freedom. They would then later decide that given the evidence this sense of freedom is a mere quale. But they know what it is like to believe in and experience (what seems like, they conclude later) free will.

And if someone believes in free will, then they believe this is the state everyone is in. So, they would know that determinists grow up experiencing this. I mean not many 14 years are thinking that all their choices were determined in the Big Bang. They feel free and presume freedom.

Only later deduction makes one question this freedom.

Maybe a few Calvinist children walk around steeped in determinist thinking.

[Wizard22]

I don't know if children or teenagers feel or believe in freedom.

Are they free?

Or don't they *have to* go to school for most of their known 18-year-old lives? Do they have a choice? Can 12-year-olds drive cars? Do drugs? Do adult things? No, they are limited in most ways. So I don't think you've presented a good case for childhood or teenage 'freedom'.

Most people seem to me, to be negative about freedom, to the point of ruling it out completely.


This is why most people are Determinist, and not Free-Will-ist.

[Flannel Jesus]

It's the other way around though.

It's the determinists who don't want to imagine what it's like to be free.

The free-will-ists know what it's like to be un-free, and have no intent on going backward.

How could it be the other way around, when it's you here saying determinists are lacking morally just like Christians think atheists are lacking morally?

[Wizard22]

Because the Determinists think they're Righteous by being unthinking followers.

Same with SJWs.

None of them realize they're being led by Leaders. Modern marketing and public relations effectively hypnotize the masses into subconscious actions and compulsions. Christianity is more overt about its Commandments, requiring priestly mediators for morality. Modern day political movements, however, cut through mediators and produce direct effects and consequences through "Democracy".


These people do not believe in Free-Will. You can agree to this much right?

[Flannel Jesus]

Seems like projection. Determinists mostly just think it's a factual statement about the operations of the universe, there's no inherent righteousness in it. You're reading too much into it.

[Flannel Jesus]

That being said, there are a very small amount of determinists here who seem to think determinism as a world view makes them more moral for some reason. If your whole "righteous" spiel is about those particular determinists, then, ya know, fine, but you're phrasing it like it's some sort of inherent part of being a determinist.

It's not.

[Wizard22]

The part where everything is morally convenient, for the Determinists, is the point being made.

[Flannel Jesus]

What?

[Iwannaplato]

I don't know if children or teenagers feel or believe in freedom.

Are they free?

Or don't they *have to* go to school for most of their known 18-year-old lives? Do they have a choice? Can 12-year-olds drive cars? Do drugs? Do adult things? No, they are limited in most ways. So I don't think you've presented a good case for childhood or teenage 'freedom'.

We're talking about free will in a philosophical context in the Metaphysics subforum. That means we are talking not about politics and restrictions, etc., but rather we are talking about whether freedom exists ontologically.

IOW could I truly have chosen to walk home from school with my friends and also have chosen to walk home alone because I was angry. Could either one of those things have happened?

A determinist thinks that only one decision could have been made regardless of how it felt to you.
A person who believes in free will thinks that either of those things could have happened and that the past does not utterly determine the next moment.

This is why most people are Determinist, and not Free-Will-ist.

You are incorrect. The majority believe in Free Will.