Race versus culture

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Londoner
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:42 pm There is nothing the whites are doing to stop blacks from imitating their culture.
However, the blacks themselves are preventing other blacks from creating a more white-like culture....
If you think that then you disagree with Seleucus. I hope you two boys have fun chatting about it.
Why do blacks hate this? Deep down it's because everyone knows that blacks, left to their own devices, would have a collapsed infrastructure, and could not support their own society, and they'd need help from, a least a few whites to run it. Therefore everybody knows that segregation, deep down, would be hurting the blacks.
But everyone also sees that many white people are stupid and incapable, and inferior to many black people.

Therefore the problem is about stupidity, not skin colour.
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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Belinda wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:57 pm
Seleucus wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:03 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:05 am Seleucus wrote:


Do you mean that you do only what expedites your own interests?
I have a chronic illness and will most likely need a very pricey and dangerous surgery before the new year, again. I'm up by 3:30 in the morning to be at locations for 6 AM and often come home close to 10. I have a family to take care of. I'm involved in various projects and committees and what not. I'm liable for taxes in multiple countries. A grant application, a draft presentation, and a proposal are due by the end of this month. The roof is leaking. The front brake disc needs to be replaced. And dinner needs to be cooked.
I wish you well. Still, it's a pity if you cannot find time and energy for revising your ideas about the plight of African Americans, even if only a passing thought that perhaps your idea of African Americans' past was wrong.
I live a long way from Atlanta let me tell you. Considering the enormous privilege and opportunity Blacks in America have, there are far far more significant human justice issues.
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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Londoner wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:08 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:42 pm There is nothing the whites are doing to stop blacks from imitating their culture.
However, the blacks themselves are preventing other blacks from creating a more white-like culture....
If you think that then you disagree with Seleucus. I hope you two boys have fun chatting about it.
Disagree about what? It's obviously true. If you mean that when Black people eat with a fork and wear blue jeans that little is changing with the deep ethno-linguistic and spiritual core of the culture, then yes, that is true. This most likely can be proven by MRI. Birdsong (his surname), if I recall correctly, showed that the brain is linguistically organized by mother tongue so that if someone speaks another language the rest of their life after age 7, MRI can still resolve their first language.
Why do blacks hate this? Deep down it's because everyone knows that blacks, left to their own devices, would have a collapsed infrastructure, and could not support their own society, and they'd need help from, a least a few whites to run it. Therefore everybody knows that segregation, deep down, would be hurting the blacks.
But everyone also sees that many white people are stupid and incapable, and inferior to many black people.

Therefore the problem is about stupidity, not skin colour.
The thing is, there are no individuals. As I'm sure an astute Buddhist like yourself will agree (see also Rupert Sheldrake). Projection of objects and agents is a construct, so the construct "Black people" is as valid a one as any other smaller and also arbitrary one like "Mr. Brown". It's perfectly fine to speak of groups, every individual is after all a multiplicity as D&G assure us in Capitalism and schizophrenia; the individual is ultimately an illusion of the capitalist mind.

Don't forget also, that the attack on large scale cultural entities of the 60s and 70s: "pots are not people" as it expressed in anthropology, was blown away by the 90s: there absolutely are enthno-linguistic boundaries/isoglosses and human super-organisms: nations/civilizations/races that can be analyzed as cohesive wholes.
Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda »

Seleucus wrote:
I live a long way from Atlanta let me tell you. Considering the enormous privilege and opportunity Blacks in America have, there are far far more significant human justice issues.
I thought you were above whataboutery!

You know fine that your own conscience is worthy of consideration.Your own concern about and my own concern about the slave consciousness that plagues America is a sign that slave consciousness in America is on the table for discussion. Even if this little internet discussion group were the only place where American slave consciousness was discussed that would be better than no discussion at all.

If you were a young child, Seleucus, or were too unwell to think, or mentally deficient, then of course you cannot be expected to be concerned about America's bad conscience. But obviously you are none of those.
Londoner
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner »

Seleucus wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:29 am Disagree about what? It's obviously true. If you mean that when Black people eat with a fork and wear blue jeans that little is changing with the deep ethno-linguistic and spiritual core of the culture,...
'spiritual core'

So having failed to identify a satisfactory way of defining a 'race' via genetics, or physical appearance, or 'ethno-linguistics' or any other scientific or empirical means ('satisfactory' meaning 'comes out with the results you want'), you have thought of a new way round the problem. A culture is defined by its 'spirit'.

And I expect you just happen to have the power to detect this spooky stuff?

And it just happens to fit in with all your personal prejudices about 'race'?

Time to transfer this thread to 'metaphysics' ...
The thing is, there are no individuals. As I'm sure an astute Buddhist like yourself will agree...
...or perhaps 'philosophy of religion'.

Did you discover that I am a Buddhist by detecting my 'spirit', flowing through the internet?

I'm afraid you will need to re-calibrate your equipment.
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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:58 am Seleucus wrote:
I live a long way from Atlanta let me tell you. Considering the enormous privilege and opportunity Blacks in America have, there are far far more significant human justice issues.
I thought you were above whataboutery!

You know fine that your own conscience is worthy of consideration.Your own concern about and my own concern about the slave consciousness that plagues America is a sign that slave consciousness in America is on the table for discussion. Even if this little internet discussion group were the only place where American slave consciousness was discussed that would be better than no discussion at all.

If you were a young child, Seleucus, or were too unwell to think, or mentally deficient, then of course you cannot be expected to be concerned about America's bad conscience. But obviously you are none of those.
Can you clarify what you mean by "slave consciousness"? Do you mean what Nietzsche called "slave morality" in Genealogy of morals?
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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Londoner wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:14 am
Seleucus wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:29 am Disagree about what? It's obviously true. If you mean that when Black people eat with a fork and wear blue jeans that little is changing with the deep ethno-linguistic and spiritual core of the culture,...
'spiritual core'

So having failed to identify a satisfactory way of defining a 'race' via genetics, or physical appearance, or 'ethno-linguistics' or any other scientific or empirical means ('satisfactory' meaning 'comes out with the results you want'), you have thought of a new way round the problem. A culture is defined by its 'spirit'.

And I expect you just happen to have the power to detect this spooky stuff?

And it just happens to fit in with all your personal prejudices about 'race'?

Time to transfer this thread to 'metaphysics' ...
The thing is, there are no individuals. As I'm sure an astute Buddhist like yourself will agree...
...or perhaps 'philosophy of religion'.
I couldn't agree with you more. The spiritual dimension of this discussion is deeply involved with metaphysics.

I feel I've been pretty consistent in speaking about the bundle of race, culture, language and spirituality. You might add to that one more point which is geography/environment.
Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda »

Seleucus wrote
Can you clarify what you mean by "slave consciousness"? Do you mean what Nietzsche called "slave morality" in Genealogy of morals?
The moral worth of the USA matters a lot to Americans : the USA's wealth was partly founded upon slave importation and slave labour therefore there is cognitive dissonance among Americans.

Cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable and those Americans who are not descended from slaves can and do demonise or patronise the descendants of slaves to salve their consciences. The process is involuntary and most people are not aware they are doing it.

Demonisation is not limited to Americans of course, we can all do it if we have bad consciences. However slave consciousness is specifically about slavery. There are persons who lack consciences and many of those are recognised criminals ,but slave consciousness refers to people who have consciences.

(E.g.
The demonisation of foxes is diagnostic of zoological illiteracy.
Times, Sunday Times (2013)
)
language is used to describe Black men who have been killed by law enforcement in the past year (July 2014-April 2015). Specifically, there is a demonizing process that happens to unarmed Black men posthumously. Unlike earlier Black icons and figures, such as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X, that were vilified while alive and then sanitized in death to be repackaged as an acceptable part of the United States historical narrative, these men are portrayed as thugs and criminals to seemingly justify their deaths while simultaneously shifting blame away from law enforcement. To illustrate, we examine six different unarmed Black menii who were killed by police throughout the United States in order to understand how media coverage addresses their deaths.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5004736/
I don't mean "slave morality".
Last edited by Belinda on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Londoner
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner »

Seleucus wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:18 pm
I couldn't agree with you more. The spiritual dimension of this discussion is deeply involved with metaphysics.
To say it has 'a spiritual dimension' is already to make a metaphysical claim. What do you mean by it?
I feel I've been pretty consistent in speaking about the bundle of race, culture, language and spirituality. You might add to that one more point which is geography/environment.
These latest additions make it even less consistent. To be consistent about 'race' you would have to select something in particular from that list, rather than make arbitrary selections from an ever-changing pick-and-mix.
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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Belinda wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:26 pm Seleucus wrote
Can you clarify what you mean by "slave consciousness"? Do you mean what Nietzsche called "slave morality" in Genealogy of morals?
The moral worth of the USA matters a lot to Americans : the USA's wealth was partly founded upon slave importation and slave labour therefore there is cognitive dissonance among Americans.

Cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable and those Americans who are not descended from slaves can and do demonise or patronise the descendants of slaves to salve their consciences. The process is involuntary and most people are not aware they are doing it.

Demonisation is not limited to Americans of course, we can all do it if we have bad consciences. However slave consciousness is specifically about slavery. There are persons who lack consciences and many of those are recognised criminals ,but slave consciousness refers to people who have consciences.
Still paying for the sins of the father? That's Biblical. That's old school. That hasn't been a part of Western law for centuries.

As it so happens, a ancestor along the patriarchal linage of my family was a person of some small historical significance and has been accused of being a slave owner by certain zealous academics and the media. The evidence is entirely conjectural since almost nothing is known of his life or doings aside from the heroic deed for which he is remembered by history. How is it that I, eight or 10 generations later am to be responsible for this supposed crime? Should my wife and children also be held culpable -- what if my wife happens to be an African woman? A descendant of New World slaves? Our children are responsible for crimes against themselves it seems then? But since I am not American it appears I will escape scott-free since it must be the US government who will pay this reparation? In which case how is a Hmong refugee who arrived in the US in the 1980s, perhaps from slavery in Thailand, liable to pay in this rare case of an ex post facto law? And what about the good slave owners as attested in many historical documents, including 12 years a slave? And what about the centuries of White slaves in Muslim lands? And the much more numerous Black? And what about the White slaves in America? And what about the Germans and Slavs enslaved by Romans thousands of years ago and who's descendants are Italians today, they should pay for the crime of their won enslavement? And in honor of Londoner, let's say I have some portion of genetic African former slave, how should the payment and the award be divvied up considering I then have supposedly slave owning ancestors and also slave?
(E.g.
The demonisation of foxes is diagnostic of zoological illiteracy.
Times, Sunday Times (2013)
)
language is used to describe Black men who have been killed by law enforcement in the past year (July 2014-April 2015). Specifically, there is a demonizing process that happens to unarmed Black men posthumously. Unlike earlier Black icons and figures, such as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X, that were vilified while alive and then sanitized in death to be repackaged as an acceptable part of the United States historical narrative, these men are portrayed as thugs and criminals to seemingly justify their deaths while simultaneously shifting blame away from law enforcement. To illustrate, we examine six different unarmed Black menii who were killed by police throughout the United States in order to understand how media coverage addresses their deaths.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5004736/
I don't mean "slave morality".
Yet you seem to be very deep in Nietzschean slave morality!
Last edited by Seleucus on Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Londoner wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:41 pm
Seleucus wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:18 pm
I couldn't agree with you more. The spiritual dimension of this discussion is deeply involved with metaphysics.
To say it has 'a spiritual dimension' is already to make a metaphysical claim. What do you mean by it?
I feel I've been pretty consistent in speaking about the bundle of race, culture, language and spirituality. You might add to that one more point which is geography/environment.
These latest additions make it even less consistent. To be consistent about 'race' you would have to select something in particular from that list, rather than make arbitrary selections from an ever-changing pick-and-mix.
In your view, what does it mean to say, "spirituality"?

In case you're totally stumped, while often regarded as not the ultimate best source, maybe this could give you at least a few leads?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

This short YouTube video by up and coming anthropologist Thomas Rowell covers a great deal of literature relating to the spiritual tradition of the European peoples, might give you few ideas?

https://youtu.be/WHKb6W1lMBU

Here's another to inspire you, Aryan Religion, just uploaded a few hours ago. A great awakening is happening across our civilization. Be a part of it! All of this stuff was covered up first by the Christians and then by the capitalists, so it's mind blowing when you start to find out who you really are.

https://youtu.be/CGcaHnKeTMw
Londoner
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner »

Seleucus wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:54 am Here's another to inspire you, Aryan Religion, just uploaded a few hours ago. A great awakening is happening across our civilization. Be a part of it! All of this stuff was covered up first by the Christians and then by the capitalists, so it's mind blowing when you start to find out who you really are.

https://youtu.be/CGcaHnKeTMw
All we had there was the old Nazi pseudo-historical myth-making.

If by 'spiritual' you mean your beliefs about 'race' are religious, rather than scientific or rational, I never doubted it.
Belinda
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda »

Seleucus wrote:
let's say I have some portion of genetic African former slave, how should the payment and the award be divvied up considering I then have supposedly slave owning ancestors and also slave?
The payment should be divided equally with all other citizens. It's not relevant what your genes are, who your ancestors are, how hard you have worked, how talented you are, or so on; the payment should be according to present needs.

"The sins of the fathers" applies insofar as an entire social class is this very day guilty of taking more than our share . I think that you personally have a conscience but you rationalise your inability to make the world a better place by demonising the less fortunate.
Yet you seem to be very deep in Nietzschean slave morality!
Thanks. I do try.
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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Londoner wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:56 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:54 am Here's another to inspire you, Aryan Religion, just uploaded a few hours ago. A great awakening is happening across our civilization. Be a part of it! All of this stuff was covered up first by the Christians and then by the capitalists, so it's mind blowing when you start to find out who you really are.

https://youtu.be/CGcaHnKeTMw
All we had there was the old Nazi pseudo-historical myth-making.

If by 'spiritual' you mean your beliefs about 'race' are religious, rather than scientific or rational, I never doubted it.
If you don't understand what "spirituality" means, you have not yet attained humanity. A soulless capitalist borg? I guess you don't know a thing about this stuff, but rather than trembling in awe at your origins and who you really are, you make bitchy sarcastic comments.

Varg Vikernes's video was of stunning depth. Incredible that the May Queen and King and other ancient Indo-European spiritual traditions still exist all the way from Iceland to Bangladesh. Why do you think this stuff is so taboo? Why do the modern statist establishment and the corporate media and the banker capitalists hate and repress the awakening right? Have you wondered about that? Have you asked yourself if you've been duped?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varg_Vikernes
Last edited by Seleucus on Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus »

Belinda wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:58 am Seleucus wrote:
let's say I have some portion of genetic African former slave, how should the payment and the award be divvied up considering I then have supposedly slave owning ancestors and also slave?
The payment should be divided equally with all other citizens. It's not relevant what your genes are, who your ancestors are, how hard you have worked, how talented you are, or so on; the payment should be according to present needs.

"The sins of the fathers" applies insofar as an entire social class is this very day guilty of taking more than our share . I think that you personally have a conscience but you rationalise your inability to make the world a better place by demonising the less fortunate.
All that money would go up in a puff of crack smoke.

I certainly do have a conscience, but that is a very different thing from the pathological guilt and white night cos-play that the White race has been deep in for more than half a century.
Yet you seem to be very deep in Nietzschean slave morality!
Thanks. I do try.
Just keep perceiving every event through the lens of an evil oppressor and a poor suffering victim. And always gloat about your superior morality and put down others while you're at it. Because that's the reality that actually out there, right? It isn't just a cognitive distortion, right? That way of seeing things isn't just an ego game, right?

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/73/ac/be/73ac ... 6dbe20.jpg
Last edited by Seleucus on Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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