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DeSpErAtIoN.....Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:05 pmThat's one obvious possibility, of course many people before you have considered it. It's unlikely to be true, because reality doesn't seem to have any intention, reality probably isn't trying to know itself. And the evolution of intelligent life may soon collapse on this planet.
Why are you betting on such a weak theory?
You say you have been in "the meditative state" for a decade but I am pretty sure we are talking about different meditative states. Meditation can be many different things. If you are able to cultivate a pure meditative state then you would understand.Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:00 pmI've been in the meditative state for over a decade, and I don't understand at all why people would call that "Truth". It's like they wanted to be misunderstood. Sure, you listen, you see way more clearly, you pick up much more. But even in the meditative state, you can still get way more wisdom from intellectual thought, than from just listening. Still don't know what you mean.simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:32 pmBecause your intellect takes reality and transforms it into your personal reality. Reality [actually, perceptual reality] is simply what's going on outside of your self [via your perceptions minus conceptual thought].Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:05 pm
So the absence of thinking is where Absolute Truth lies. What does that mean? In English that's not what thinking means and that's not what truth means. Perceive what? What things other than physical reality? Why would thinking necessarily create a complete and utter distortion?
You must let go of the intellectual definition of truth. Truth in the non-intellectual is simply "things as they are." No interpretation needed.Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:49 pmNone of this makes sense. Unless one of these Buddhists can one day actually show that there really is something to that non-thinking state. I've been to it and saw nothing of the sort. See reality directly as it is, with as much clarity as possible, sure, but what "Truth"?
And I do not consider myself a Buddhist. Zen is meditation only.
If you allow your mind to become quiet, another portal sort of opens up. It's like when you stop talking, you can listen. It takes a long time for most people to cultivate this ability but it is nothing special. And seeing things with the greatest clarity possible [meditative state] is what the practice is. It is this clarity that gives rise to wisdom [something everybody can tap into if they can just quiet their minds].
It's something you must experience [like all profound things in life, e.g., compassion, love, honor, etc.].
It took me years to get to the point where I'm pretty much permanently in a meditative state. Seeing things more clearly isn't the same as seeing things as they truly are. You just usually get closer to seeing things as they truly are. Calling it Truth or wisdom is incorrect imo, that's not how these English words are used, it's obfuscation.simplicity wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:58 amYou say you have been in "the meditative state" for a decade but I am pretty sure we are talking about different meditative states. Meditation can be many different things. If you are able to cultivate a pure meditative state then you would understand.Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:00 pmI've been in the meditative state for over a decade, and I don't understand at all why people would call that "Truth". It's like they wanted to be misunderstood. Sure, you listen, you see way more clearly, you pick up much more. But even in the meditative state, you can still get way more wisdom from intellectual thought, than from just listening. Still don't know what you mean.simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:32 pm
Because your intellect takes reality and transforms it into your personal reality. Reality [actually, perceptual reality] is simply what's going on outside of your self [via your perceptions minus conceptual thought].
You must let go of the intellectual definition of truth. Truth in the non-intellectual is simply "things as they are." No interpretation needed.
And I do not consider myself a Buddhist. Zen is meditation only.
If you allow your mind to become quiet, another portal sort of opens up. It's like when you stop talking, you can listen. It takes a long time for most people to cultivate this ability but it is nothing special. And seeing things with the greatest clarity possible [meditative state] is what the practice is. It is this clarity that gives rise to wisdom [something everybody can tap into if they can just quiet their minds].
It's something you must experience [like all profound things in life, e.g., compassion, love, honor, etc.].
When you do achieve such a state, it is not just listening. It is perceiving in a way that nobody can really describe. It's sort of like when you have one of those days when you a just "there." Everything goes well, your timing is perfect, etc. It's like an athlete who is "in the zone." Filtering out your own take on things allows something much closer to actual Reality to come through. This is what facilitates wisdom. Simply seeing things as they are is all it is. Nothing more. This is why the historical Buddha said that he achieved absolutely nothing in his transcendence to full enlightenment. What could be more profound than seeing things are they truly are? In that the simplest of things is brought into being by an infinite number of things preceding, our intellects have no chance of understanding the complexity of the world we face. The best we can do is simply seeing things as they are.
LOOK, when you speak The Truth ONLY, then one is NOT 'distorting' Reality, Itself, for what It Truly IS.simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:32 pmBecause your intellect takes reality and transforms it into your personal reality. Reality [actually, perceptual reality] is simply what's going on outside of your self [via your perceptions minus conceptual thought].Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:05 pmSo the absence of thinking is where Absolute Truth lies. What does that mean? In English that's not what thinking means and that's not what truth means. Perceive what? What things other than physical reality? Why would thinking necessarily create a complete and utter distortion?simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:18 pm
Do you wish to have a conversation or not? Stop with the personal insults.
The Void is The Void, not nothing. You are trying to understand the non-intellectual intellectually. Not going to happen. The Void is simply an absence of thinking. This is very different than nothing.
You must let go of the intellectual definition of truth. Truth in the non-intellectual is simply "things as they are." No interpretation needed.Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:49 pmNone of this makes sense. Unless one of these Buddhists can one day actually show that there really is something to that non-thinking state. I've been to it and saw nothing of the sort. See reality directly as it is, with as much clarity as possible, sure, but what "Truth"?
And I do not consider myself a Buddhist. Zen is meditation only.
If you allow your mind to become quiet, another portal sort of opens up.
EVERY one, NATURALLY, just 'listened', that is; until they "grew up" and became adults.simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:32 pm It's like when you stop talking, you can listen. It takes a long time for most people to cultivate this ability but it is nothing special.
And, EVERY one was in this 'state', but unfortunately they become NOT. As evidenced and PROVED True, in this forum, here.simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:32 pm And seeing things with the greatest clarity possible [meditative state] is what the practice is.
LOL THE Mind is NEVER 'noisy'. Only 'you', human beings, are 'noisy'. And, as you would say, it is your 'intellect' that is NOISY, and which DISTORTS 'Reality'simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:32 pm It is this clarity that gives rise to wisdom [something everybody can tap into if they can just quiet their minds].
And, when you DO 'experience' 'It', then you WILL SEE, and HEAR, what I have been TALKING ABOUT and SAYING here.simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:32 pm It's something you must experience [like all profound things in life, e.g., compassion, love, honor, etc.].
Well yeah, but the reality is, a man's gotta eat.simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:22 pmSeems to this observer that Reality can take care of itself.
If you can NOT back up and support the CLAIMS you MAKE, then I suggest you REFRAIN from TALKING, and just LISTEN.simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:35 pmI have no answers for you. Only you have answers for you.Age wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:47 amWhy did you put a question mark on the end of these two words here?
Do 'you' NOT YET KNOW thy Self?
Do you want or expect me to answer your questions, but you will NOT do the same in return?
The only 'thing' I wish here is that 'you' answer the clarifying question I posed to you. You KNOW, the one where I FORGET to add a question mark to here.
Oh, and by the way, I wish you will answer all of the other clarifying questions as well. But, we do NOT always get what we wish for, correct?
If you can NOT or will NOT answer ANY questions and/or challenges regarding what 'you' CLAIM, then 'you' are one VERY WEAK individual. And so you are not even taking 1% of responsibility.
WHY I ask the questions I do here is for A VERY SPECIFIC REASON.simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:32 pm Then you won't need to ask anybody else anymore questions.
Does ANY one say, "the meditative state is Truth"?Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:00 pmI've been in the meditative state for over a decade, and I don't understand at all why people would call that "Truth".simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:32 pmBecause your intellect takes reality and transforms it into your personal reality. Reality [actually, perceptual reality] is simply what's going on outside of your self [via your perceptions minus conceptual thought].Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:05 pm
So the absence of thinking is where Absolute Truth lies. What does that mean? In English that's not what thinking means and that's not what truth means. Perceive what? What things other than physical reality? Why would thinking necessarily create a complete and utter distortion?
You must let go of the intellectual definition of truth. Truth in the non-intellectual is simply "things as they are." No interpretation needed.Atla wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:49 pmNone of this makes sense. Unless one of these Buddhists can one day actually show that there really is something to that non-thinking state. I've been to it and saw nothing of the sort. See reality directly as it is, with as much clarity as possible, sure, but what "Truth"?
And I do not consider myself a Buddhist. Zen is meditation only.
If you allow your mind to become quiet, another portal sort of opens up. It's like when you stop talking, you can listen. It takes a long time for most people to cultivate this ability but it is nothing special. And seeing things with the greatest clarity possible [meditative state] is what the practice is. It is this clarity that gives rise to wisdom [something everybody can tap into if they can just quiet their minds].
It's something you must experience [like all profound things in life, e.g., compassion, love, honor, etc.].
Well that is one ASSUMPTION, which is CLEARLY False. But PLEASE feel FREE to continue with that BLATANTLY Wrong ASSUMPTION.
How do you define 'meditative state'?
How SLOW can someone be?
So what?
To who?
This does NOT matter AT ALL.
LOL "such a weak theory".
Here is ANOTHER one who just WRITES and CLAIMS 'things', but does NOT REALLY SAY ANY 'thing', as just PROVED True, AGAIN, and ALSO can NOT and will NOT even 'try to' back up and support its CLAIMS, when I question and/or challenge them.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:06 pmDeSpErAtIoN.....Atla wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:05 pmThat's one obvious possibility, of course many people before you have considered it. It's unlikely to be true, because reality doesn't seem to have any intention, reality probably isn't trying to know itself. And the evolution of intelligent life may soon collapse on this planet.
Why are you betting on such a weak theory?
As usual, you're the one who has to show proof for your claim that Reality has an intention, anyone can make such a claim. We all know how this goes, you will get evasive, maybe bring up that you've seen the absolute truth, maybe start channeling the universe a little, but you will provide zero proof because you don't have any.Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:50 amSo what?
I have NEVER CLAIMED OTHERWISE.
To who?
And, because 'Reality' does NOT seem to have ANY intention, TO YOU, then does this MEAN that Reality, Itself, does NOT have ANY intention?
As for 'Reality' PROBABLY NOT trying to know Itself, what are you basing this ASSUMPTION on, EXACTLY?
This does NOT matter AT ALL.
And, thinking the WHOLE of the Universe is dependent upon a life form on one solitary planet is a PRIME EXAMPLE of just how SHALLOW and NARROWED the adult people were, in the days when this was being written.
If ANY species is wiped out, through self-caused, or not, then this has NO bearing AT ALL on thee eternal Universe.
Oh, and by the way, because the Universe, Itself, has ALREADY WORK OUT and thus has ALREADY COME-TO-KNOW Its Self - Thy Self, ONCE AGAIN, intelligent life collapsing on the earth is of NO real significance.
The 'plan' has ALREADY been SHOWN and PROVED to be WORKING, PERFECTLY.LOL "such a weak theory".
We await your Honest answers to the CLARIFYING questions I posed to you here.
Then we WILL SEE what is Truly WEAK and what is Truly IRREFUTABLE.
If we FIND and SEE that YOUR ASSUMPTIONS are based SOLELY on just what 'you' PERCEIVE and/or THINK, then NO MORE will need to be SAID and SHOWN.
But, if YOUR ASSUMPTIONS are based on ACTUAL IRREFUTABLE PROOF, then this will have to be seen. After all, the words 'unlikely, 'seem', and 'probably' existed within YOUR ASSUMPTIONS. So, REALLY what is ACTUALLY True here, can be CLEARLY SEEN, ALREADY.
But I have ALL the PROOF NEEDED, ALREADY.Atla wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:25 pmAs usual, you're the one who has to show proof for your claim that Reality has an intention, anyone can make such a claim. We all know how this goes, you will get evasive, maybe bring up that you've seen the absolute truth, maybe start channeling the universe a little, but you will provide zero proof because you don't have any.Age wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:50 amSo what?
I have NEVER CLAIMED OTHERWISE.
To who?
And, because 'Reality' does NOT seem to have ANY intention, TO YOU, then does this MEAN that Reality, Itself, does NOT have ANY intention?
As for 'Reality' PROBABLY NOT trying to know Itself, what are you basing this ASSUMPTION on, EXACTLY?
This does NOT matter AT ALL.
And, thinking the WHOLE of the Universe is dependent upon a life form on one solitary planet is a PRIME EXAMPLE of just how SHALLOW and NARROWED the adult people were, in the days when this was being written.
If ANY species is wiped out, through self-caused, or not, then this has NO bearing AT ALL on thee eternal Universe.
Oh, and by the way, because the Universe, Itself, has ALREADY WORK OUT and thus has ALREADY COME-TO-KNOW Its Self - Thy Self, ONCE AGAIN, intelligent life collapsing on the earth is of NO real significance.
The 'plan' has ALREADY been SHOWN and PROVED to be WORKING, PERFECTLY.LOL "such a weak theory".
We await your Honest answers to the CLARIFYING questions I posed to you here.
Then we WILL SEE what is Truly WEAK and what is Truly IRREFUTABLE.
If we FIND and SEE that YOUR ASSUMPTIONS are based SOLELY on just what 'you' PERCEIVE and/or THINK, then NO MORE will need to be SAID and SHOWN.
But, if YOUR ASSUMPTIONS are based on ACTUAL IRREFUTABLE PROOF, then this will have to be seen. After all, the words 'unlikely, 'seem', and 'probably' existed within YOUR ASSUMPTIONS. So, REALLY what is ACTUALLY True here, can be CLEARLY SEEN, ALREADY.
Getting evasive... check. Proof has to be presented before it can get challenged.Age wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:40 amBut I have ALL the PROOF NEEDED, ALREADY.Atla wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:25 pm As usual, you're the one who has to show proof for your claim that Reality has an intention, anyone can make such a claim. We all know how this goes, you will get evasive, maybe bring up that you've seen the absolute truth, maybe start channeling the universe a little, but you will provide zero proof because you don't have any.
I am just WAITING for those who are Truly CURIOS and who have the ABILITY to QUESTION and/or CHALLENGE me.
You are OBVIOUSLY NOT one of those ones "atla".
LOL "Getting evasive" from 'what', EXACTLY?Atla wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:49 amGetting evasive... check.Age wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:40 amBut I have ALL the PROOF NEEDED, ALREADY.Atla wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:25 pm As usual, you're the one who has to show proof for your claim that Reality has an intention, anyone can make such a claim. We all know how this goes, you will get evasive, maybe bring up that you've seen the absolute truth, maybe start channeling the universe a little, but you will provide zero proof because you don't have any.
I am just WAITING for those who are Truly CURIOS and who have the ABILITY to QUESTION and/or CHALLENGE me.
You are OBVIOUSLY NOT one of those ones "atla".
That 'may be' True, BUT CLAIMS 'can be' CHALLENGED.
More evasion and still zero proof presented, as expected.Age wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 9:53 amLOL "Getting evasive" from 'what', EXACTLY?
I have NOT YET been questioned NOR challenged on ANY thing here.
It was 'you', "atla", who has made the CLAIMS, which 'I' HAVE CHALLENGED.That 'may be' True, BUT CLAIMS 'can be' CHALLENGED.
But, OF COURSE, if one BELIEVES WHOLEHEARTEDLY that a CLAIM 'could NOT possibly be true', then that one usually just LEAVES and does NOT challenge.
Also, as can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVED True here, you have made CLAIMS, and I HAVE CHALLENGED you on those CLAIMS. And, what is ALSO PROVED True you have FAILED to back up and support those CLAIMS of YOURS.
SEE, I do NOT provide PROOF UNLESS, at least, SOME one SHOWS SOME interest. NO one has SHOWN INTEREST YET. So, I have NO reason to present PROOF.
The PROOF, after all, has ALREADY presented ITSELF, and, SPEAKS for ITSELF. I only POINT, those who are Truly INTERESTED in thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' to THOSE 'things', by explaining HOW TO FIND and SEE thee Truth for, and by, "themselves".
As I have been SAYING, I am NOT here to 'convince' ANY one of ANY 'thing'. I am just here to learn how to communicate to 'you', human beings, HOW 'you' can FIND and SEE thee Truth of 'things' ALL by "your" OWN "selves". After all, it is ONLY 'you' who KNOWS thee ACTUAL Truth.
For how long the Truth was ALREADY KNOWN, instinctively, or unconsciously, 'we' WILL just have to WAIT, and SEE.
Now, if you would like to back up and support YOUR CLAIMS, which I have ALREADY CHALLENGED you on, then PLEASE go on and START NOW.
You CLAIM it is unlikely to be true that so-called 'Reality' is USING 'you', continually evolving 'things', to KNOW Its Self. So, what PROOF do you have for this CLAIM of YOURS?
You have ALREADY said and stated, because reality doesn't seem to have any intention, reality probably isn't trying to know itself.
BUT, OBVIOUSLY, that is NOT PROOF AT ALL.
I have even ALREADY challenged AND questioned 'you' about 'who' this SEEMS, to, EXACTLY. And, we are STILL WAITING for 'you' to answer, and CLARIFY.
Are 'you' UNDER some ILLUSION that what SEEMS, to 'you', MUST THEREFORE relate ACCURATELY to Reality, Itself?
'Lest we forget' that it SEEMS like the sun revolves around the earth, to 'you', human beings.
There were SOME OTHER questions AND challenges I put forward to 'you' as well. So, will you EVER gain the COURAGE to even 'try to' back up and support THOSE CLAIMS here?
If no, then I WILL, ONCE AGAIN, suggest that you OBTAIN the ACTUAL PROOF for YOUR CLAIMS, BEFORE you make YOUR CLAIMS public, like in this forum here. Otherwise you could FIND "yourself" LOOKING rather VERY FOOLISH, ONCE MORE.
