After All...What Can You Add?

[Age]

The purpose of speech is to change something. People who don't want to change anything have nothing to say.

Nothing to say is quite an assumption.

More like:

The purpose of speech is to change something.
People who don’t speak have no need to change something.
People who don’t move have no need to change something.
Hunger is but one cause for movement that causes change (a complex chain of movements required to eat.)

Although what "skepdick" said here was NOT absolutely True and Right, it was 'close enough', for now, but if what you have said here was meant to clear things up, then how EXACTLY have you done this?

To me, you have just made what "skepdick" wrote MORE incorrect.

[Age]

With time, I find that I have less and less to say [in general]. I know why this is the case and often wonder why I contribute anything at all. Consider the following...

...many might agree that each and every moment is complete, just the way it is. What more needs to be added?

Is reality not enough for most folks who feel compelled to add an addendum to all that transpires?

Talk about the arrogance of a species that would hardly find itself in the top ten primates!

The purpose of speech is to change something. People who don't want to change anything have nothing to say.

You are saying that you have less and less to say. But you are still saying it. Why?

I didn't say I have nothing to say [although I really don't]. I just enjoy conversing with folks who can think a bit outside the box while not taking everything personally.

If you really do enjoy 'conversing', then would you like to converse about what is 'it' that you would really like to express in the fewest of words possible?

If yes, then could I suggest you would like to express the Fact that thee ACTUAL Truth just speaks for itself, and as Life, Itself, is JUST ALWAYS EVOLVING, a species has evolved with the ability to 'think about' and SPEAK and TALK ABOUT 'this One Truth'. So, could what 'Life', Itself, is ACTUALLY DOING here, through evolution, is creating 'beings' which are just in a process of just learning how to REARRANGE words, in a way, so that they, literally, SPEAK for Truth, Itself?

Or, is this NOT a POSSIBILITY, AT ALL, of which, by the way, 'mediation' is the in between, the 'medium' or just 'middle ground', between REVEALING thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' to what was, essentially, just physical matter, which is continually becoming CONSCIOUSLY AWARE of Itself?

[Age]

What more needs to be added?

Whatever provides energy but not too much to corrupt form or capacity of naturally designed functions ... to disadvantage.

Seems to this observer that Reality can take care of itself.

VERY True, but COULD 'Reality' come to KNOW thy Self, or become AWARE of Its Self, without CREATING continually evolving species, or creature, with ever increasing ABILITIES to KEEP learning, understanding, reasoning, and COMPREHENDING more and more 'new' 'things' all the time.

This is NOT to say that the continually evolving 'species' come to KNOW 'things', but rather that Reality, Itself, uses these continually evolving species to come to KNOW thy Self.

[Age]

Thank you for making my point.

No problem, although it would be nice to know what your point is.

Is it a version of Buddhism where we meditate ourselves into a plant-like state, and convince ourselves (we intellectualize, heh) that that's a good thing?

I am attempting to have a conversation with somebody who can get there ideas across without stating them in obvious form AND who is able to take their ego out of at least one thought once in a while.

Most of the people who post here act like grade school children engaged in verbal fisticuffs on the playground.

I am NOT able to express or get "my ideas" across yet FULLY nor CORRECTLY, but I am just in a process of learning how to communicate with 'you', human beings, in a much more clearer and concise state.

When ALL of 'us' here post like 'we' are grade school children engaged in verbal fisticuffs on the playground, then that is NOT 'Reality, or 'I', thy Self' 'speaking' that is just each and EVERY one of 'you', human beings, resorting back to 'old habits'.

See 'I' am speaking through EACH and EVERY one here, but 'I' get lost in, and through, translation of 'you', human beings, because EACH and EVERY one of 'you' has had COMPLETELY DIFFERENT past experiences (although some experiences have ALL been the EXACT SAME). But, because NONE of 'you' have had experiences of PERFECT COMMUNICATION, NONE of 'you' LEARNED, and thus KNOW, how to COMMUNICATE successfully, or in other words FULLY SUCCESSFULLY, YET, I WILL ADD. So, what happens is 'we', this human beings too, ALL resort back to our OLD habits of communicating, which a lot of was LEARNED, at a particular age, in the school yard playgrounds.

[simplicity]

As far as, "Simplicity is Truth," is concerned, I can help you out there.

Truth cannot be accessed through the human intellect for many reasons we have all discussed previously. If you accept such a proposition, then I believe the following will make sense to you.

Absolute simplicity is The Void. This is where Absolute Truth lies. Although we cannot understand The Truth, we can be in its presence. And the best we can do it perceive it [incorporating our human filters and being subject to things such as physical reality, e.g., time-lag, etc.], it being better than the alternative which is creating our own truth [intellectually] which is a complete and utter distortion of Reality.

What people call the truth is so far from any sense of truth that it's kind of a joke even entertaining such a nation. This is why it has been said a million different ways, but it's not what you know that's important, instead, what you know that you can never know that means everything.

? Void is nothing, simplicity and Truth are something. These are mutually exclusive.
You can't be in the presence of nothing.

Getting "Truth" from nothing looks like a Buddhist psychosis to me. An intellectually created psychosis, how ironic is that?

Do you wish to have a conversation or not? Stop with the personal insults.

The Void is The Void, not nothing. You are trying to understand the non-intellectual intellectually. Not going to happen. The Void is simply an absence of thinking. This is very different than nothing.

[Age]

No problem, although it would be nice to know what your point is.

Is it a version of Buddhism where we meditate ourselves into a plant-like state, and convince ourselves (we intellectualize, heh) that that's a good thing?

I am attempting to have a conversation with somebody who can get there ideas across without stating them in obvious form AND who is able to take their ego out of at least one thought once in a while.

Most of the people who post here act like grade school children engaged in verbal fisticuffs on the playground.

But your ego and verbal fisticuffs seem to be tied to your idea which goes something like this: simplicity = truth?

But 'simplicity', itself, SIMPLY IS Truth.

That 'simplicity' is NOT to be confused with the one known here, in this forum, as "simplicity'.

That doesn't make a lick of sense imo, yes the simplest explanations are most often the correct ones.

So if the 'simplest explanations' are most often the correct ones, then how, EXACTLY, does 'simplicity = truth' NOT make a so-called "lick of sense", to you?

By the way, what does a "lick of sense" even mean or refer to, to you?

Yes mistaking the conceptual reality for reality is bad, and overthinking is also bad.

So, WHY did 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this was being written, keep continually doing these things?

I have ALREADY EXPLAINED that UNCOVERING, FINDING, SEEING, and UNDERSTANDING thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth of 'things' is REALLY just a VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY process. And, I have ALSO EXPLAINED that this SEEING and UNDERSTANDING happens almost instantaneously, that is; Once one learns and KNOWS how to find thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things'.

But always sticking to "simplicity", we would still live in caves probably.

WHY?

The reason why 'you', human beings, live in the things you do, at the places you do, at the stages in Life, after caves, might after all just simply be because you have made 'things', questionably, "MORE SIMPLE" for "yourselves", by just creating 'things' very 'SIMPLY, itself.

For example, to move the rocks and/or sticks to the caves in order to make fire, then creating a very simple 'wheel', instead of carrying sticks by hand, made things more simple, and easier, and to make things even more simpler, creating a simple road by just simply moving things around, to make the wheel move more simply over the ground made the simpler task of moving the sticks and/or rocks in which to create the fire, in the caves, made things even simpler again. And then building and creating more and more things, and by doing this in just very simple ways, made living easier.

After all 'Life', Itself, is Truly SIMPLE, and EASY.

And, it is ONLY 'you', human beings, who make 'life' and 'living' APPEAR hard and complex.

One could say the biggest "gift" of being human, is the ability to think, being able to come up with massive, complex conceptual views.

It is good to see you double quote the 'gift' word otherwise you could be mistaken for one BELIEVING that some 'thing' had 'gifted' 'you', human beings, with something.

Now, what thee ACTUAL Truth IS is that 'you', human beings, are the ONLY 'species', which has 'evolved', with the ABILITY to learn, understand, and reason absolutely ANY thing and EVERY thing. There is NO other 'creature' NOR 'species' known of, to 'you', which has this ABILITY (or "gift" if you so wish or prefer).

And, because 'Life', Itself, and thus EVERY 'thing' within Life,the Universe, is absolutely SIMPLE and EASY, (besides of course 'you', the making 'things' complex and hard species, known as 'the human being'), absolutely EVERY 'thing' is REALLY VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY.

The Fact that 'you', human beings, 'think' 'things' into "massive and complex" 'views' does NOT mean Life/Reality/Existence/Universe, Itself, is REALLY like 'this'.

Maybe if you list some of the so-called "massive, complex conceptual views", that some of 'you', human beings, have created for "yourselves", and we LOOK AT and DISCUSS how much 'they' REALLY relate to what IS ACTUALLY True, Right, AND Correct, then what IS ACTUALLY True here can come-to-light.

SEE, what REALLY happens is there is a Universe, which within a species with the ABILITY to learn, understand, and reason, (or just 'think' if you like) has come to evolve. Now, what this Universe ACTUALLY IS and how 'It' ACTUALLY WORKS could NOT be MORE SIMPLER and MORE EASIER than absolutely and, literally, ANY thing else. BUT, it is 'you', adult human being, who IS causing and creating CONFUSION and MISUNDERSTANDING by your very OWN 'thinking' (ASSUMING or BELIEVING) that 'things'/the Universe IS "complex and hard".

There is NOTHING MORE SIMPLER than the Universe, Itself. Which 'I' am. literally, PROVING True HERE-NOW.

So what's your point?

Do you have a 'point' here?

If yes, then what is 'your point' here?

[simplicity]

Whatever provides energy but not too much to corrupt form or capacity of naturally designed functions ... to disadvantage.

Seems to this observer that Reality can take care of itself.

VERY True, but COULD 'Reality' come to KNOW thy Self, or become AWARE of Its Self, without CREATING continually evolving species, or creature, with ever increasing ABILITIES to KEEP learning, understanding, reasoning, and COMPREHENDING more and more 'new' 'things' all the time.

This is NOT to say that the continually evolving 'species' come to KNOW 'things', but rather that Reality, Itself, uses these continually evolving species to come to KNOW thy Self.

Know Thyself? What is it that you wish to know?

[Age]

But your ego and verbal fisticuffs seem to be tied to your idea which goes something like this: simplicity = truth? That doesn't make a lick of sense imo, yes the simplest explanations are most often the correct ones. Yes mistaking the conceptual reality for reality is bad, and overthinking is also bad. But always sticking to "simplicity", we would still live in caves probably. One could say the biggest "gift" of being human, is the ability to think, being able to come up with massive, complex conceptual views. So what's your point?

As far as, "Simplicity is Truth," is concerned, I can help you out there.

Truth cannot be accessed through the human intellect for many reasons we have all discussed previously.

This is just what 'you' think or BELIEVE is true. This is YOUR OPINION, ONLY, and NOT necessarily true AT ALL. '

Also, and furthermore, 'we' have NOT ALL discussed previously your OPINION and BELIEF here.

And, if you STILL have NOT YET RECOGNIZED and SEEN, what you are doing here is just expressing your OWN BELIEF and OPINION and expressing it as though it is the Truth. Which is Truly HUMOROUS considering the VERY Fact that you are ALSO CLAIMING here that 'you' have absolutely NO access to 'Truth' AT ALL.

ONCE AGAIN, EVERY time ANY one of 'you' CLAIMS that, "There is NO, nor absolute, truth", for example, 'you' are just CONTRADICTING "your" OWN 'self'.

If you accept such a proposition, then I believe the following will make sense to you.

Absolute simplicity is The Void. This is where Absolute Truth lies.

BUT, if as you PROPOSE, you have absolutely NO access to 'Absolute Truth', then HOW do 'you' KNOW where 'Absolute Truth' lies?

Also, what is the VERY 'thing', which is the BARRIER between 'human intellect' AND WHERE 'Absolute Truth' lies? The absolute and irrefutable answer, and thus Absolute Truth, to this, by the way, is VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY to come to and arrive at. That is; once one learns what the BARRIER IS, and how to OVER-COME 'it'.

Although we cannot understand The Truth, we can be in its presence.

Is this, itself, The Truth, or is this just another one of YOUR made up make-believe STORIES?

If it is the former, then how does this lie in with your CLAIM that 'you' can NOT understand The Truth.

But, if it is the latter, then okay, so it is NOT true AT ALL, correct?

And, you can NOT, logically, have this BOTH WAYS.

Also, when you say and make the CLAIM, "We can be in The Truth's presence", what do you ACTUALLY MEAN and refer to? I ask this because from my perspective 'we' have NO way of NOT being in the presence of The Truth. To me, 'we' are ALWAYS in the presence of The Truth. Some of 'us', however, are just WITH The Truth FAR MORE that "others" are. And this is because some of 'us' are FAR MORE OPEN than "others" are.

Oh, and by the way, the reason WHY The Truth can NOT be accessed by 'your, 'human intellect', is because it is 'human intellect', itself, that is STOPPING and PREVENTING The Truth from being SEEN and becoming KNOWN. In particular 'your', human BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

And the best we can do it perceive it [incorporating our human filters and being subject to things such as physical reality, e.g., time-lag, etc.], it being better than the alternative which is creating our own truth [intellectually] which is a complete and utter distortion of Reality.

Are 'you' even AWARE that you are creating your own truth (intellectually) here, which 'you' are correct, in that 'you' are distorting 'Reality', Itself, somewhat.

What people call the truth is so far from any sense of truth that it's kind of a joke even entertaining such a nation.

So, 'you', "simplicity", are 'a person' correct?

If yes, then what 'you' call 'the truth' is ALSO so far from any sense of truth that it's kind of a joke even entertaining such a notion, correct?

If yes, then EVERY 'thing' you have said so far is NOT 'the truth', right?

Or, do you call, 'what you say', is 'the truth'?

Your Honesty will, like ALWAYS, be most welcomed, and Truly refreshing, here.

This is why it has been said a million different ways, but it's not what you know that's important, instead, what you know that you can never know that means everything.

Do you KNOW what 'you' can NEVER 'know'?

If yes, then what is 'that', EXACTLY?

[Age]

As far as, "Simplicity is Truth," is concerned, I can help you out there.

Truth cannot be accessed through the human intellect for many reasons we have all discussed previously. If you accept such a proposition, then I believe the following will make sense to you.

Absolute simplicity is The Void. This is where Absolute Truth lies. Although we cannot understand The Truth, we can be in its presence. And the best we can do it perceive it [incorporating our human filters and being subject to things such as physical reality, e.g., time-lag, etc.], it being better than the alternative which is creating our own truth [intellectually] which is a complete and utter distortion of Reality.

What people call the truth is so far from any sense of truth that it's kind of a joke even entertaining such a nation. This is why it has been said a million different ways, but it's not what you know that's important, instead, what you know that you can never know that means everything.

? Void is nothing, simplicity and Truth are something. These are mutually exclusive.
You can't be in the presence of nothing.

Getting "Truth" from nothing looks like a Buddhist psychosis to me. An intellectually created psychosis, how ironic is that?

Do you wish to have a conversation or not? Stop with the personal insults.

The Void is The Void, not nothing. You are trying to understand the non-intellectual intellectually. Not going to happen. The Void is simply an absence of thinking. This is very different than nothing.

But some people associate the word 'void', with 'nothing'.

To me, 'void' is NOT 'absence of thinking'. 'Absence of thinking', to me, is when one is just 'not thinking'.

[Age]

Seems to this observer that Reality can take care of itself.

VERY True, but COULD 'Reality' come to KNOW thy Self, or become AWARE of Its Self, without CREATING continually evolving species, or creature, with ever increasing ABILITIES to KEEP learning, understanding, reasoning, and COMPREHENDING more and more 'new' 'things' all the time.

This is NOT to say that the continually evolving 'species' come to KNOW 'things', but rather that Reality, Itself, uses these continually evolving species to come to KNOW thy Self.

Know Thyself?

Why did you put a question mark on the end of these two words here?

Do 'you' NOT YET KNOW thy Self?

What is it that you wish to know?

Do you want or expect me to answer your questions, but you will NOT do the same in return?

The only 'thing' I wish here is that 'you' answer the clarifying question I posed to you. You KNOW, the one where I FORGET to add a question mark to here.

Oh, and by the way, I wish you will answer all of the other clarifying questions as well. But, we do NOT always get what we wish for, correct?

[Atla]

As far as, "Simplicity is Truth," is concerned, I can help you out there.

Truth cannot be accessed through the human intellect for many reasons we have all discussed previously. If you accept such a proposition, then I believe the following will make sense to you.

Absolute simplicity is The Void. This is where Absolute Truth lies. Although we cannot understand The Truth, we can be in its presence. And the best we can do it perceive it [incorporating our human filters and being subject to things such as physical reality, e.g., time-lag, etc.], it being better than the alternative which is creating our own truth [intellectually] which is a complete and utter distortion of Reality.

What people call the truth is so far from any sense of truth that it's kind of a joke even entertaining such a nation. This is why it has been said a million different ways, but it's not what you know that's important, instead, what you know that you can never know that means everything.

? Void is nothing, simplicity and Truth are something. These are mutually exclusive.
You can't be in the presence of nothing.

Getting "Truth" from nothing looks like a Buddhist psychosis to me. An intellectually created psychosis, how ironic is that?

Do you wish to have a conversation or not? Stop with the personal insults.

The Void is The Void, not nothing. You are trying to understand the non-intellectual intellectually. Not going to happen. The Void is simply an absence of thinking. This is very different than nothing.

So the absence of thinking is where Absolute Truth lies. What does that mean. In English that's not what thinking means and that's not what truth means. Perceive what? What things other than physical reality? Why would thinking necessarily create a complete and utter distortion? None of this makes sense. Unless one of these Buddhists can one day actually show that there really is something to that non-thinking state. I've been to it and saw nothing of the sort. See reality directly as it is, with as much clarity as possible, sure, but what "Truth"?

[simplicity]

? Void is nothing, simplicity and Truth are something. These are mutually exclusive.
You can't be in the presence of nothing.

Getting "Truth" from nothing looks like a Buddhist psychosis to me. An intellectually created psychosis, how ironic is that?

Do you wish to have a conversation or not? Stop with the personal insults.

The Void is The Void, not nothing. You are trying to understand the non-intellectual intellectually. Not going to happen. The Void is simply an absence of thinking. This is very different than nothing.

So the absence of thinking is where Absolute Truth lies. What does that mean? In English that's not what thinking means and that's not what truth means. Perceive what? What things other than physical reality? Why would thinking necessarily create a complete and utter distortion?

Because your intellect takes reality and transforms it into your personal reality. Reality [actually, perceptual reality] is simply what's going on outside of your self [via your perceptions minus conceptual thought].

None of this makes sense. Unless one of these Buddhists can one day actually show that there really is something to that non-thinking state. I've been to it and saw nothing of the sort. See reality directly as it is, with as much clarity as possible, sure, but what "Truth"?

You must let go of the intellectual definition of truth. Truth in the non-intellectual is simply "things as they are." No interpretation needed.

And I do not consider myself a Buddhist. Zen is meditation only.

If you allow your mind to become quiet, another portal sort of opens up. It's like when you stop talking, you can listen. It takes a long time for most people to cultivate this ability but it is nothing special. And seeing things with the greatest clarity possible [meditative state] is what the practice is. It is this clarity that gives rise to wisdom [something everybody can tap into if they can just quiet their minds].

It's something you must experience [like all profound things in life, e.g., compassion, love, honor, etc.].

[simplicity]

VERY True, but COULD 'Reality' come to KNOW thy Self, or become AWARE of Its Self, without CREATING continually evolving species, or creature, with ever increasing ABILITIES to KEEP learning, understanding, reasoning, and COMPREHENDING more and more 'new' 'things' all the time.

This is NOT to say that the continually evolving 'species' come to KNOW 'things', but rather that Reality, Itself, uses these continually evolving species to come to KNOW thy Self.

Know Thyself?

Why did you put a question mark on the end of these two words here?

Do 'you' NOT YET KNOW thy Self?

What is it that you wish to know?

Do you want or expect me to answer your questions, but you will NOT do the same in return?

The only 'thing' I wish here is that 'you' answer the clarifying question I posed to you. You KNOW, the one where I FORGET to add a question mark to here.

Oh, and by the way, I wish you will answer all of the other clarifying questions as well. But, we do NOT always get what we wish for, correct?

I have no answers for you. Only you have answers for you. You must take 100% responsibility for your self. Then you won't need to ask anybody else anymore questions.

[Atla]

Do you wish to have a conversation or not? Stop with the personal insults.

The Void is The Void, not nothing. You are trying to understand the non-intellectual intellectually. Not going to happen. The Void is simply an absence of thinking. This is very different than nothing.

So the absence of thinking is where Absolute Truth lies. What does that mean? In English that's not what thinking means and that's not what truth means. Perceive what? What things other than physical reality? Why would thinking necessarily create a complete and utter distortion?

Because your intellect takes reality and transforms it into your personal reality. Reality [actually, perceptual reality] is simply what's going on outside of your self [via your perceptions minus conceptual thought].

None of this makes sense. Unless one of these Buddhists can one day actually show that there really is something to that non-thinking state. I've been to it and saw nothing of the sort. See reality directly as it is, with as much clarity as possible, sure, but what "Truth"?

You must let go of the intellectual definition of truth. Truth in the non-intellectual is simply "things as they are." No interpretation needed.

And I do not consider myself a Buddhist. Zen is meditation only.

If you allow your mind to become quiet, another portal sort of opens up. It's like when you stop talking, you can listen. It takes a long time for most people to cultivate this ability but it is nothing special. And seeing things with the greatest clarity possible [meditative state] is what the practice is. It is this clarity that gives rise to wisdom [something everybody can tap into if they can just quiet their minds].

It's something you must experience [like all profound things in life, e.g., compassion, love, honor, etc.].

I've been in the meditative state for over a decade, and I don't understand at all why people would call that "Truth". It's like they wanted to be misunderstood. Sure, you listen, you see way more clearly, you pick up much more. But even in the meditative state, you can still get way more wisdom from intellectual thought, than from just listening. Still don't know what you mean.

[Atla]

This is NOT to say that the continually evolving 'species' come to KNOW 'things', but rather that Reality, Itself, uses these continually evolving species to come to KNOW thy Self.

That's one obvious possibility, of course many people before you have considered it. It's unlikely to be true, because reality doesn't seem to have any intention, reality probably isn't trying to know itself. And the evolution of intelligent life may soon collapse on this planet.

Why are you betting on such a weak theory, or have you divined this knowledge as well?