Philosophy Now Forum

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:22 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:28 pm But good luck with your, "collective solution." Perhaps yours will work out better than the ones in Cuba, Venezuela, Cambodia, and North Korea. In the meantime, enjoy your chains.

Why no mention of the Collectivist States of America?

Yes, the collective states of USA too. Thanks for the reminder.

Like all the others in history, the states start out good when there is very little government to cater to the vast ignorant, incompetent, and unproductive masses (otherwise known as the voting public or, these days, the public school educated TV viewing audience, or classically, "society"), that mass of riff-raff clamoring for free everything from health-care to being saved from the lastest pending disasters (climate, pandemics, environment, asteroids, etc.) invented by academics and poloticians.

[quote=RCSaunders post_id=486254 time=1608932528 user_id=16196]
[quote=Skepdick post_id=486250 time=1608924121 user_id=17350]
[quote=RCSaunders post_id=486245 time=1608920885 user_id=16196]
But good luck with your, "collective solution." Perhaps yours will work out better than the ones in Cuba, Venezuela, Cambodia, and North Korea. In the meantime, enjoy your chains.
[/quote]
Why no mention of the Collectivist States of America?
[/quote]
Yes, the collective states of USA too. Thanks for the reminder.

Like all the others in history, the states start out good when there is very little government to cater to the vast ignorant, incompetent, and unproductive masses (otherwise known as the voting public or, these days, the public school educated TV viewing audience, or classically, "society"), that mass of riff-raff clamoring for free everything from health-care to being saved from the lastest pending disasters (climate, pandemics, environment, asteroids, etc.) invented by academics and poloticians.
[/quote]

Oh boo hoo, people want free stuff. Bullshit. They want a common share of humanity's commonly created wealth.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:53 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:42 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:22 pm
Why no mention of the Collectivist States of America?

Yes, the collective states of USA too. Thanks for the reminder.

Like all the others in history, the states start out good when there is very little government to cater to the vast ignorant, incompetent, and unproductive masses (otherwise known as the voting public or, these days, the public school educated TV viewing audience, or classically, "society"), that mass of riff-raff clamoring for free everything from health-care to being saved from the lastest pending disasters (climate, pandemics, environment, asteroids, etc.) invented by academics and poloticians.

Oh boo hoo, people want free stuff. Bullshit. They want a common share of humanity's commonly created wealth.

actually, at the root of it, people want their -- as you mention up-thread -- individual sovereignty recognized and respected...a man, a woman, doesn't want to be used as a resource by robber-barons or government...the technocrat who redistributes (steals) to serve the greater good is just as offensive as the highwayman

no, the world's problems won't be solved thru addin' insult to injury; they can be addressed only when life, liberty, and property are recognized and respected, when it is common knowledge that some things are not permissible between and among men, and when the consequences for violatin' life, liberty, and property are clear and direct

to be clear, though: even in a world where every man is taught to recognize and respect individual sovereignty, there will still be would-be slavers, sum'bitches who believe themselves entitled to the other guy's life, liberty, or property...these folks can't be eliminated completely...they can only be dealt with, defended against, rubbed out

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=486268 time=1608945258 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=486262 time=1608940410 user_id=15238]
[quote=RCSaunders post_id=486254 time=1608932528 user_id=16196]

Yes, the collective states of USA too. Thanks for the reminder.

Like all the others in history, the states start out good when there is very little government to cater to the vast ignorant, incompetent, and unproductive masses (otherwise known as the voting public or, these days, the public school educated TV viewing audience, or classically, "society"), that mass of riff-raff clamoring for free everything from health-care to being saved from the lastest pending disasters (climate, pandemics, environment, asteroids, etc.) invented by academics and poloticians.
[/quote]

Oh boo hoo, people want free stuff. Bullshit. They want a common share of humanity's commonly created wealth.
[/quote]

actually, at the root of it, people want their -- as you mention up-thread -- individual sovereignty recognized and respected...a man, a woman, doesn't want to be used as a resource by robber-barons or government...the technocrat who [i]redistributes[/i] (steals) to serve [i]the greater good[/i] is just as offensive as the highwayman

no, the world's problems won't be solved thru addin' insult to injury; they can be addressed only when life, liberty, and property are recognized and respected, when it is common knowledge that some things are not permissible between and among men, and when the consequences for violatin' life, liberty, and property are clear and direct

to be clear, though: even in a world where every man is taught to recognize and respect individual sovereignty, there will still be would-be slavers, sum'bitches who believe themselves entitled to the other guy's life, liberty, or property...these folks can't be eliminated completely...they can only be dealt with, defended against, rubbed out
[/quote]

You grossly overestimate people's ability to be active moral agents, and underestimate the necessity for having a world-level government with ultimate, legitimate, authority to handle world-level issues, however many checks and balances that entails, and at whatever cost. That is not incompatible with maximum freedom, but necessity trumps. Efficiency fills the gap.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:26 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:14 am

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:53 am

Oh boo hoo, people want free stuff. Bullshit. They want a common share of humanity's commonly created wealth.

actually, at the root of it, people want their -- as you mention up-thread -- individual sovereignty recognized and respected...a man, a woman, doesn't want to be used as a resource by robber-barons or government...the technocrat who redistributes (steals) to serve the greater good is just as offensive as the highwayman

no, the world's problems won't be solved thru addin' insult to injury; they can be addressed only when life, liberty, and property are recognized and respected, when it is common knowledge that some things are not permissible between and among men, and when the consequences for violatin' life, liberty, and property are clear and direct

to be clear, though: even in a world where every man is taught to recognize and respect individual sovereignty, there will still be would-be slavers, sum'bitches who believe themselves entitled to the other guy's life, liberty, or property...these folks can't be eliminated completely...they can only be dealt with, defended against, rubbed out

You grossly overestimate people's ability to be active moral agents, and underestimate the necessity for having a world-level government with ultimate, legitimate, authority to handle world-level issues, however many checks and balances that entails, and at whatever cost. That is not incompatible with maximum freedom, but necessity trumps. Efficiency fills the gap.

you, sir, are a true technocrat

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=486273 time=1608947015 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=486271 time=1608945964 user_id=15238]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=486268 time=1608945258 user_id=472]


actually, at the root of it, people want their -- as you mention up-thread -- individual sovereignty recognized and respected...a man, a woman, doesn't want to be used as a resource by robber-barons or government...the technocrat who [i]redistributes[/i] (steals) to serve [i]the greater good[/i] is just as offensive as the highwayman

no, the world's problems won't be solved thru addin' insult to injury; they can be addressed only when life, liberty, and property are recognized and respected, when it is common knowledge that some things are not permissible between and among men, and when the consequences for violatin' life, liberty, and property are clear and direct

to be clear, though: even in a world where every man is taught to recognize and respect individual sovereignty, there will still be would-be slavers, sum'bitches who believe themselves entitled to the other guy's life, liberty, or property...these folks can't be eliminated completely...they can only be dealt with, defended against, rubbed out
[/quote]

You grossly overestimate people's ability to be active moral agents, and underestimate the necessity for having a world-level government with ultimate, legitimate, authority to handle world-level issues, however many checks and balances that entails, and at whatever cost. That is not incompatible with maximum freedom, but necessity trumps. Efficiency fills the gap.
[/quote]

you, sir, are a true technocrat
[/quote]

You missed the legitimate part.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:25 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:43 am

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:26 am You grossly overestimate people's ability to be active moral agents, and underestimate the necessity for having a world-level government with ultimate, legitimate, authority to handle world-level issues, however many checks and balances that entails, and at whatever cost. That is not incompatible with maximum freedom, but necessity trumps. Efficiency fills the gap.

you, sir, are a true technocrat

You missed the legitimate part.

I missed nuthin'...I just think you're wrong, about all of it, is all