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Saying, "absolute knowledge is impossible", is expressing a knowledge as though it is absolutely true, which it could be said is actually 'absolute knowledge', itself. So, an extremely contradictory statement and thing to say.
Is growth, flexibility, and change NATURAL?Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:00 pmI think that philosophy is most powerful and truthful when it recognizes and allows growth, flexibility, and change... because that is NATURAL, and we cannot know some ultimate truth from our extraordinarily limited human perspectives, NOR is there even likely to be such a thing as some ultimate truth.Nick_A wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:07 amFrom Jacob Needleman's book "The Heart of Philosophy"... /...The function of philosophy in human life is to help Man remember. It has no other task. And anything that calls itself philosophy which does not serve this function is simply not philosophyLacewing wrote:This human NEED to think we could (and do) “know” such things: what difference does it really make? Can’t we live effective and enjoyable lives without claiming to possess some particular ultimate unchanging knowledge?
And NO one I have seen is suggesting this. So, you are 'trying to' argue against some thing, which NO one has even said nor implied.
Yet here you are rigidly affirming that that the Universe is not static, and rigidly believing that there is NOT 'some ultimate truth', which, hopefully is recognized by now, is 'some ultimate truth', of yours.
Which is EXACTLY what 'you', "lacewing", are doing here, and which can also, obviously, only go so far. As evidenced and already proven true.
AND, do 'you', "lacewing", claim that there is NOT 'some ultimate truth' but growth, flexibility and change is NATURAL?Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:00 pm Refusing to accept contrived fantasy is not a lack of love for philosophy -- rather, it is a refusal to put the Universe in a box. There is VALUE (for whatever its worth) from all different paths of philosophy. Selecting ONE path to rigidly follow, preach, and identify with is as limited and self-indulgent as it sounds -- especially when one dishonestly and foolishly claims it is the only true path.
Despite straw men set up by RCSaunders, I will keep on topic. It's hardly a conspiracy theory that schools exclusively for rich people tend to perpetuate class division , and tend to frustrate social mobility.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:35 pmWhat is a, "position of power?" Is this some kind of conspiracy theory? And what does, "grooming," mean? I know you have a problem in the UK with Muslim men grooming underage girls as sex slaves. Seems to me you pick an odd kind of grooming to worry about, without batting an eye at the 19,000 plus girls who are endangered. Oh, I forgot, you're not supposed talk about that because you will probably be accused of hate speech. So much for free speech, eh!?
There is very little difference between those who view human beings in terms of race, ethnicity, "gender," or class, or any other way of ranking individuals in terms of some group one assigns them to. It is that collectivist view of humanity that perpetuates divisions. Until human beings begin to view other human beings as individuals, not in terms of which clan or group or class or category they belong to, your dream of a classless society are impossible.Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:35 amDespite straw men set up by RCSaunders, I will keep on topic. It's hardly a conspiracy theory that schools exclusively for rich people tend to perpetuate class division , and tend to frustrate social mobility.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:35 pmWhat is a, "position of power?" Is this some kind of conspiracy theory? And what does, "grooming," mean? I know you have a problem in the UK with Muslim men grooming underage girls as sex slaves. Seems to me you pick an odd kind of grooming to worry about, without batting an eye at the 19,000 plus girls who are endangered. Oh, I forgot, you're not supposed talk about that because you will probably be accused of hate speech. So much for free speech, eh!?
We agree to the same principle, we disagree about, "implementation."henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:22 am Everyone is different and there is no, "one way," everyone must think, believe, choose, and live, which is what is wrong with every political ideology which would foist its views on everyone. I only want every individual to be able to live their own life without anyone else forcing them to do or not do anything.
me too: that's why I advocate for a chartered, natural rights minarchy
We don't agree on much, Lacewing, but I certainly empathize (can't believe I used that word) with you here. The tendency of so many on this board to psychologize, read other's minds, and know exactly what others think and believe can be infuriating. I doubt Age will get it, though.
But I don't dream of a classless society that's another straw man of your own making. My vote goes to politicians who improve education by removing schools that are too expensive for any but a rich elite; providing tertiary education for all; and providing quality nursery education where children learn through play.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:04 pmThere is very little difference between those who view human beings in terms of race, ethnicity, "gender," or class, or any other way of ranking individuals in terms of some group one assigns them to. It is that collectivist view of humanity that perpetuates divisions. Until human beings begin to view other human beings as individuals, not in terms of which clan or group or class or category they belong to, your dream of a classless society are impossible.Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:35 amDespite straw men set up by RCSaunders, I will keep on topic. It's hardly a conspiracy theory that schools exclusively for rich people tend to perpetuate class division , and tend to frustrate social mobility.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:35 pm
What is a, "position of power?" Is this some kind of conspiracy theory? And what does, "grooming," mean? I know you have a problem in the UK with Muslim men grooming underage girls as sex slaves. Seems to me you pick an odd kind of grooming to worry about, without batting an eye at the 19,000 plus girls who are endangered. Oh, I forgot, you're not supposed talk about that because you will probably be accused of hate speech. So much for free speech, eh!?
My mistake. If you believe individuals should be assigned to different classes, that's fine. I don't.
I don't want anybody's money taken from them to pay for the education of anyone else or their children. It makes no difference at all to me how much a school costs so long as one pays for it with money they have earned, not confiscated by force from others.
Agreed. I would replace the word "political" with the word "any", because I think this applies to religious and cultural ideologies as well.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:48 am Everyone is different and there is no, "one way," everyone must think, believe, choose, and live, which is what is wrong with every political ideology which would foist its views on everyone.
Sounds good. What is actually considered force, though? We are all subjected to controlling influences that seek to change the way we think, believe, choose, and live. It can happen through a relentless onslaught of coercion, intimidation, ridicule, condemnation, judgments, distortions, etc. -- all for the purpose of defining and/or controlling how things are or should be... based on a particular viewpoint.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:48 amI only want every individual to be able to live their own life without anyone else forcing them to do or not do anything.
It is really dishonest of you to try to put words in my mouth. I am not guilty of the opinions you impute to me.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:16 pmMy mistake. If you believe individuals should be assigned to different classes, that's fine. I don't.I don't want anybody's money taken from them to pay for the education of anyone else or their children. It makes no difference at all to me how much a school costs so long as one pays for it with money they have earned, not confiscated by force from others.
*individuals are naturally freeRCSaunders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:10 pmWe agree to the same principle, we disagree about, "implementation."henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:22 am Everyone is different and there is no, "one way," everyone must think, believe, choose, and live, which is what is wrong with every political ideology which would foist its views on everyone. I only want every individual to be able to live their own life without anyone else forcing them to do or not do anything.
me too: that's why I advocate for a chartered, natural rights minarchy
*I believe only individuals can make themselves free, **you believe some kind of collective system can do it, but it doesn't matter ***so long as neither of us wants to force our view on the other. I wish you success in whatever you pursue.
Age wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:06 amSaying, "absolute knowledge is impossible", is expressing a knowledge as though it is absolutely true, which it could be said is actually 'absolute knowledge', itself. So, an extremely contradictory statement and thing to say.
Just out of curiosity, because I have no intention of arguing about it, what do you mean by, "absolute knowledge." The reason I'm asking is because, what I mean by absolute knowledge is only, "certain knowledge," by which I mean knowledge I cannot doubt, such as my knowledge that I am alive and that I am conscious. I am also certain there is heavier than air human flight and that radio signals can be transmitted around the world and even to the planets.
The answer to this is OBVIOUS.Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:54 pmAs your examples demonstrate, oppression for one person doesn't necessarily feel like oppression for another. Perspective determines reality for each person, yes? There are many kinds of oppression everywhere, all the time -- against women, races, sexual orientation, theists/non-theists, etc. If you don't LIVE it, you might not see it, nor care.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:10 pmYour personal experience doesn't count.
No matter where you live, or how oppressive a government is, if you personally have no desire or ambition to do anything the government forbids, or are able to evade it, you will not consider that government oppressive. I have personally known two individuals living in communist China who were not all personally oppressed. One is an American doctor who went originally to China as a, "doctor without borders," married a Chinese girl, and lives there now very happily. The other was frankly a smuggler who knew how to play the politics (paying the squeeze) and generally operate under the radar. They both lived just as they chose, but it was in spite of the oppression. There is no way to honestly describe the Chinese communist government as anything but oppressive.
You may stand in the midst of all of that, and choose the enemies you feel it worthy to rage against, and encourage others to focus like you do. But truly, who decides... for everyone... what the perspective should be?
Well, this is but just one way to look at 'empathy', itself.Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:41 pmThe way to know others' lives is via empathy. Empathy is learned through education in the humanities i.e. philosophy, history, drama, novels and other expressive literature, anthropology, theology, art appreciation, and history of ideas.Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:54 pmAs your examples demonstrate, oppression for one person doesn't necessarily feel like oppression for another. Perspective determines reality for each person, yes? There are many kinds of oppression everywhere, all the time -- against women, races, sexual orientation, theists/non-theists, etc. If you don't LIVE it, you might not see it, nor care.RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:10 pm
Your personal experience doesn't count.
No matter where you live, or how oppressive a government is, if you personally have no desire or ambition to do anything the government forbids, or are able to evade it, you will not consider that government oppressive. I have personally known two individuals living in communist China who were not all personally oppressed. One is an American doctor who went originally to China as a, "doctor without borders," married a Chinese girl, and lives there now very happily. The other was frankly a smuggler who knew how to play the politics (paying the squeeze) and generally operate under the radar. They both lived just as they chose, but it was in spite of the oppression. There is no way to honestly describe the Chinese communist government as anything but oppressive.
You may stand in the midst of all of that, and choose the enemies you feel it worthy to rage against, and encourage others to focus like you do. But truly, who decides... for everyone... what the perspective should be? You simply cannot know all of those lives. Standing in judgment... making blanket claims about groups of people... and spreading toxicity about things you don't live or understand... is simply in service to yourself and your identity.