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Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:03 am
by Walker
commonsense wrote:I agree. I just wonder how to reconcile the happiness that change brings with the unabated fear and anxiety that change brings to some humans as well.
Restricting peace of mind to still mind, or the calm state, is an error because doing so imposes a condition upon the unconditional peace of mind, and because peace of mind also exists during moving mind (thinking).
Equating peace of mind with unchanging happiness is also an error.
Example: a person near the end, having put all the final affairs of life in order, the funeral arrangements made, the will properly prepared, the farewells spoken, will have peace of mind. All that can be done, has been done. This doesn't mean the person is happy about dying.
Happy happy happy
Somewhere in his writings Eric Hoffer noted personal anxiety. He said he was on a bus, one of the migrant workers, on his way to pick green beans (I think it was green beans). He said he had never done that before and was slightly anxious about it, and also wondering about the philosophical
implications of his anxiety, seeing as how he had picked other vegetables and fruits in the past.
Seems like implications go right to the core of philosophy, whereas agnosticism and other indecisiveness is merely blinking and looking away from reality.
*
Did you observe the movements of the snow lion? Not a damn bit of indecisiveness there, was there. That was all taken care of in the stillness, before movement commenced.
If you observed that, did you also observe the free-falling relaxation in all the movements of the snow lion, that would indicate peace of mind in a high-speed, human athlete moving in microseconds … the peace of mind of being
in the zone, when all the colors are bright, all the details revealed, with no sense of rushing, or anxiety, or even happy. Peace of mind.
The real question is, since buddhas and arhats know permanent peace of mind independent of circumstance, then what is their motive force? Why move a muscle or think a thought? Why give gifts?
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:26 am
by Lacewing
Walker wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:03 am
since buddhas and arhats know permanent peace of mind independent of circumstance, then what is their motive force? Why move a muscle or think a thought? Why give gifts?
Because one can be ecstatic in the flow, and it's a joy to participate in it. Peace of mind is just one condition to experience.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:49 am
by Walker
I see what you mean, so in relation to that, to not tread on your point and end what is likely boring to folks due to my limitations, I simply must transmit just one more thing about the logic of my posting, which is that it indicates a state beyond external conditions of aversion or attraction, and beyond samsara or nirvana … or ecstacy, which I interpret to mean physical sensation that draws awareness to energy, and which can manifest as sublime thought that consumes attention. Control and understanding of that energy is useful for purpose, which I interpret in the Buddha and arhat sense to be more than a physical awareness of energy, although awareness of energy is important.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:59 am
by Lacewing
Walker wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:49 am
a state beyond external conditions of aversion or attraction, and beyond samsara or nirvana … or ecstacy
Yes. I'm not sure why anyone would want to stay in that state while on planet Earth, though... with so much vibrancy being a part of being here. It seems like a nice place to visit and rest in once in awhile perhaps...
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:10 pm
by -1-
commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:38 am
I agree. I just wonder how to reconcile the happiness that change brings with the unabated fear and anxiety that change brings to some humans as well.
That's a good question. If I were forced to answer that, I'd say that we don't live in an ideally good world; the world is haphazard, events are not lined up in our humanly expected way, i.e. "one good turn deserves another" and "the just and the wicked will find their own rewards" and the like are mere wishful expectations, and they may or may not come true.
Given that, you can arrange a most pleasant life for yourself or for your child, but if the subject (you or your child) become schizophrenic for apparently no real reason, then the entire theory of how to attain happiness gets fucked very fast and it goes down the hole.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:32 pm
by Walker
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:59 am
Walker wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:49 am
a state beyond external conditions of aversion or attraction, and beyond samsara or nirvana … or ecstacy
Yes. I'm not sure why anyone would want to stay in that state while on planet Earth, though... with so much vibrancy being a part of being here. It seems like a nice place to visit and rest in once in awhile perhaps...
Seriously though, state of mind is the medium for realizing nature of mind and any state of mind will do for that, although some states of mind are less subtle, more noticeable, such as strong emotions.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:26 pm
by 11011
with peace of mind you would still be motivated to move a muscle or think a thought, you would be merely going from awesome to more awesome.
just because peace of mind is your baseline, doesn't mean you're not motivated to even greater awesomeness.
plus, peace of mind just covers suffering; it deals with the negative. but what about the positive potential? that is the motivation to go beyond.
and no, happiness isn't just a result of alleviating some suffering or discomfort, which can actually be enjoyable experiences in themselves so i'd be reluctant to call the appetites suffering, more like pleasurable anticipation.
but to my point, it is possible to experience great things from an already great baseline. for example, listening to music. you need not be depressed or in some negative state to enjoy music, it can simply enhance any occasion.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:22 am
by -1-
Some said that peace of mind is great, the best, and if you experience something positive, then it's even greater, it's ecstasy.
So peace of mind is actually not the greatest. Ecstasy is.
How do you experience ecstasy? By experiencing something positive.
So experiencing something positive while already having a peace of mind is greater than having a peace of mind.
Therefore peace of mind is not the greatest, as some have claimed.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:32 am
by -1-
Further to my previous post: I had claimed earlier, that the exchange of suffering to pleasure gives man motivation; and that from pleasure one sinks into a state of suffering for need or of want of something. Then the cycle repeats itself.
Some others claimed that peace of mind is a high base-line, and it is not dependent on the change I proposed. Then they went on to say that the baseline-happiness can be increased, by listening to some music, by eating some great food or love, as a fulfillment after a period of joyful anticipation.
My response to this is that the eater can't eat forever incessantly, and the joyful listener to music in ecstasy can't continue with that incessantly. There has to be a period of change no-music or no-food or no-love. Therefore there it is: the change I suggested which is needed for human happiness.
A peace-of-mind baseline is not ecstasy, as some others suggested, and not as good as ecstasy, as the same have suggested. CHANGE is needed to bring one to ecstasy.
Therefore I claim that my original claim still stands, and it is not defeated, because I have claimed that change is needed for happiness.
You may call your baseline state which is happy, happiness, but to me happiness is also a relative term, because it has no discernible, measurable, absolute value that we could sense or measure; it is a fully subjective judgment call. Therefore if some baseline state can be increased from time to time, but not on a constant basis, (to the level of ecstasy, for instance), then it is ecstasy that is the "happy" state of that individual, not the baseline state, although it may feel as "happy" to the experiencer.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:20 pm
by Walker
-1- wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:22 am
So peace of mind is actually not the greatest. Ecstasy is.
Well, don’t overdo it or you’ll burn out those neuro-receptors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEAr7ThsYew
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:06 pm
by 11011
once you have peace of mind you can enjoy the same things over and over again.
the reason why people go nuts listening to the same thing over and over again or any other such example is because things that seem repetitive are not interesting enough to distract them from their internal unrest.
once you've obtained peace of mind however then all things inherently gratifying remain so, perhaps requiring mild rotation only, that is alternating between say 10 different things, with no need ever to add anything new. moreover, change of the sort where you listen to a song and then return to a baseline is not the same as environmental change you have no control over, which is inherently negative, and disrupts your fundamental peace of mind making true happiness impossible.
once you've obtained peace of mind you reach a point where you not only realize but experience the inherent difference in all experience, and can appreciate that difference to the point that it all remains quite interesting. the fact is, each time you listen to the same song, the experience is never exactly the same. each time you focus on slightly different aspects of the song, creating a different experience each time, if you are enlightened. this isn't forced, but perfectly natural and a result of being in tune with the massive amount of information inherent in a single moment of reality or human experience. it is breathtaking and gloriously stimulating. you never step into the same river twice, as it were, but you have to have the baseline stillness of mind to experience this, not just understand it as a concept. (and btw, baseline means default or automatic return point once you cease active pursuit of different experience, or relieve yourself of particular conditions you've brought about that have a bearing on experience)
on the other hand, if you have internal unrest (due to uncontrollable environmental change around you) then you 'tunnel vision' reality and human experience (impose a crude, simplistic mental frame and attitude onto the canvas of reality) in order to cope with perceived threats. you filter reality by simplifying it, attuning yourself only to what you think is important, thereby requiring categorically different experience each time to experience anew. but it's all in your head and a response to uncontrollable change around you. reality is inherently changing, and abundantly interesting and stimulating with no human intervention on a scene, but you need to stop the movement of your mind and detach from preconceived notions to sense fully the inherent movement around you, but not so much movement that it is beyond your control. in fact, what i call 'nature's movement' is not inherently stressful so long as you know the cycles of nature by simple observation. what is inherently stressful is movement due to human intervention, because humans, especially humans we don't know, are unpredictable. so control is the major factor you failed to consider here.
this is also partly influenced by culture. we are raised to attune to certain things and regard other things as unimportant. our culture which includes our family upbringing may even go so far as to say that paying too much attention to these other things is a sign of mental illness as it tries to control and limit our perception to culturally relevant things only. we are raised to adopt crude worldviews and mental filters that chop up reality in convenient or culturally significant ways but which seriously limit our human experience, reinforced by reward and punishment at all levels. and you yourself will reinforce these teachings which become second nature as you are too scared to venture from the social reality your mommy raised you to see for fear of losing precious bonds to other humans or objects of significance.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:37 pm
by -1-
11011 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:06 pm
once you have peace of mind you can enjoy the same things over and over again.
the reason why people go nuts listening to the same thing over and over again or any other such example is because things that seem repetitive are not interesting enough to distract them from their internal unrest.
once you've obtained peace of mind however then all things inherently gratifying remain so, perhaps requiring mild
rotation only, that is alternating between say 10 different things, with no need ever to add anything new. moreover, change of the sort where you listen to a song and then return to a baseline is not the same as environmental change you have no control over, which is inherently negative, and disrupts your fundamental peace of mind making true happiness impossible.
once you've obtained peace of mind you reach a point where you not only realize but experience the inherent difference in all experience, and can appreciate that difference to the point that it all remains quite interesting. the fact is, each time you listen to the same song, the experience is never exactly the same. each time you focus on slightly different aspects of the song, creating a different experience each time, if you are enlightened. this isn't forced, but perfectly natural and a result of being in tune with the massive amount of information inherent in a single moment of reality or human experience. it is breathtaking and gloriously stimulating. you never step into the same river twice, as it were, but you have to have the baseline stillness of mind to experience this, not just understand it as a concept. (and btw, baseline means default or automatic return point once you cease active pursuit of different experience, or relieve yourself of particular conditions you've brought about that have a bearing on experience)
on the other hand, if you have internal unrest (due to uncontrollable environmental change around you) then you 'tunnel vision' reality and human experience (impose a crude, simplistic mental frame and attitude onto the canvas of reality) in order to cope with perceived threats. you filter reality by simplifying it, attuning yourself only to what you think is important, thereby requiring categorically different experience each time to experience anew. but it's all in your head and a response to uncontrollable change around you. reality is inherently changing, and abundantly interesting and stimulating with no human intervention on a scene, but you need to stop the movement of your mind and detach from preconceived notions to sense fully the inherent movement around you, but not so much movement that it is beyond your control. in fact, what i call 'nature's movement' is not inherently stressful so long as you know the cycles of nature by simple observation. what is inherently stressful is movement due to human intervention, because humans, especially humans we don't know, are unpredictable. so control is the major factor you failed to consider here.
this is also partly influenced by culture. we are raised to attune to certain things and regard other things as unimportant. our culture which includes our family upbringing may even go so far as to say that paying too much attention to these other things is a sign of mental illness as it tries to control and limit our perception to culturally relevant things only. we are raised to adopt crude worldviews and mental filters that chop up reality in convenient or culturally significant ways but which seriously limit our human experience, reinforced by reward and punishment at all levels. and you yourself will reinforce these teachings which become second nature as you are too scared to venture from the social reality your mommy raised you to see for fear of losing precious bonds to other humans or objects of significance.
This sounds great in theory. I am not sure if it stands up to empirical tests. But it may. I am not a judge of that.
I know it would not work for me... I had had periods in my life of utter peace of mind, yet repetitive action, music, tasks, even just brushing my teeth every day, drove me nuts.
I guess there is more to repetition than we assume. Or less for other people than what I know for myself. We are all different.
This differentness is what stops me from accepting your theory as applicable to reality. We are all different, and all attempts at "what is human nature" fails at one point or another because we, as a species, can't be categorized into just one single solitary mold.
Then again, repetition can bring forth peace of mind, much practiced in meditation, when a mantra is repeated incessantly and it brings forth a hugely relaxed state of mind - along with the help of other things.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:25 pm
by 11011
it's not something you can validly reject on the basis of your perceived personal individual differences
i hope you don't take this as invalidating to your person, not my intention; you are you and your experiences are real, but they may not be valid to answering this question, the key word is 'may'
the thread question is: what do humans really want?
the key words are 'humans' and 'really want'
so when we strip away all our experiences, or those not necessary to the human condition, but instead a facet of our unique culture/upbringing, what do humans really want?
another way of putting it is, if humans could have anything within the realm of possibility within the human condition, that is what would make them most enduringly happy, what would it be?
it's a tough question, but just illustrate that your 'brushing my teeth drove me nuts' isn't a valid basis for rejecting my 'theory', consider that there likely exists a small culture or society somewhere where not a single individual has problems brushing their teeth for one reason or another - we would have to dissect exactly why it drove you nuts lol - and thus what you experience as fundamental individual difference may not be relevant to understanding or knowing human nature.
but i do acknowledge the theoretical nature of the discussion. however, it possible within that discussion to rule out certain things, through logic and example, and thus get a bit closer to the truth or 'the best possible tentative answer under the circumstances'.
Re: what do humans really want?
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:08 pm
by Walker
-1- wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:37 pm
Then again, repetition can bring forth peace of mind, much practiced in meditation, when a mantra is repeated incessantly and it brings forth a hugely relaxed state of mind - along with the help of other things.
The incessant repetition of a sound is called “jappa (japa)” and true, it can wear out interest with boredom until one finally surrenders to the realization that there is no end to it, that there is nowhere to run to, and nowhere to hide.
On the other hand mantra meditation, in which sound is used as a focus of attention, is different. It’s silent, not spoken. Attention wanders away from the silent internal sound, the object of focus, then attention gently returns to the object of focus when you remember your purpose in sitting there wherever you are without figiting, without moving.
This continues until both the wandering of attention, and the focus of attention, fades away into no thought, which is a moment that goes unnoticed. Very simple and non-conceptual, however until one grows accustomed to the catch and release of thoughts, busy little monkey-mind will try to control the flow of thoughts and that can be physically disturbing … anxiety and headaches, so the curious should not dismiss or trivialize human presence as guidance, and remember as the Buddha said just don’t take noggin advice from any Tom, Dick, or Harry. Weigh it against your own good sense.
