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Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2026 11:41 am
by Will Bouwman
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 12:36 am
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 12:14 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2026 11:40 pm
You asked for evidence of unserved populations, significant populations.
Well, while every individual is significant, if you believe the videos you posted demonstrate that the number of "unserved populations" of any city in which universal health is available, is proportionally significant, you will have to explain why.
He believes it's better to leave the wealthy their wealth so that they will "invest" it in for-profit enterprises, and some will trickle down to those who lack any healthcare at all.
I don't know how accurately 'prosperity theology'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology describes Mr Can's views, but it seems to me there is at least some overlap. He has to believe 12 impossible things before breakfast just to function. Mr Can is not a serious person and he can't do simple sums, but he has been bamboozled by some genuinely unpleasant right wing propaganda, which should not go unchallenged. Hate the sin, not the sinner.
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:06 pm
by Immanuel Can
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 8:29 am
...1500 people sleeping rough in London on any given night...
It's your own people who are telling you the NHS is failing. 60% of them, actually. And those are the people who ARE allegedly being served. And that from the report that is considered "the gold standard" of reporting on the subject.
So 60% are not being served. Plus, you have drug addicts, migrants and the mentally ill -- notoriously difficult to count, let alone serve -- to be put into the system. And you have no plan for stepping up the service for any of them...not the 60%, and not the rest.
I think your universal health care is on life-support.
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:07 pm
by Immanuel Can
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:31 pm
by MikeNovack
Uh IC, do you imagine that 60% would be any more satisfied with the sort of system we have here in the US? That they would be getting better care here?
It is less a matter of how much being paid for health care as a matter of how paid for. Deducted from your pay as taxes or deducted from your pay as insurance premiums. The concept "single payer" isn't dependent on it being a government program directly or government licensed non-profit insurance or even for profit (like our utilities). This is an area where competition doesn't really help but instead adds to costs (preventing "adverse selection", etc.)
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:35 pm
by Immanuel Can
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:31 pm
Uh IC, do you imagine that 60% would be any more satisfied with the sort of system we have here in the US?
That would be a speculation. I'm not inclined to speculate. If the numbers work, then you can have universal health care. If they don't, or if nobody has numbers, then we have no way of believing it can work.
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 7:25 am
by Will Bouwman
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2026 5:06 pm... you have drug addicts, migrants and the mentally ill -- notoriously difficult to count, let alone serve -- to be put into the system.
They are in the system. Your assertion that:
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2026 2:49 pm...things like immigration and the mental health and fentanyl crises, which aren't actually even being addressed right now, and will explode the costs if they ever are.
is wrong.
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 1:53 pm
by Immanuel Can
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 7:25 am
They are in the system.
You think we'll believe you? We see them on the streets every day, in encampments, bent over with addiction, yelling madly on street corners...you call this "in the system," do you? Meanwhile, 60% of your own countrymen don't think the system they're in is adequately serving them, but you think the system is fine?
Good luck with that.
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:05 pm
by MikeNovack
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 1:53 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 7:25 am
They are in the system.
You think we'll believe you? We see them on the streets every day, in encampments, bent over with addiction, yelling madly on street corners...you call this "in the system," do you? Meanwhile, 60% of your own countrymen don't think the system they're in is adequately serving them, but you think the system is fine?
Good luck with that.
IC, d yu imagine if they show up at the methadone clinic they won't get their "fix"? If they are dumped at the ER door f a hospital they won't get treated, admitted even if required?
Yeah, they don't get routine care*, but then again, housed working poor might not either.
* -- actually, in some cases they do, even here. There are homeless vets that can get routine care at the VA hospital. In some rare cases, they might even be homeless because of needing that care (needing to be close enough to that VA hospital)
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:14 pm
by Immanuel Can
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 1:53 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 7:25 am
They are in the system.
You think we'll believe you? We see them on the streets every day, in encampments, bent over with addiction, yelling madly on street corners...you call this "in the system," do you? Meanwhile, 60% of your own countrymen don't think the system they're in is adequately serving them, but you think the system is fine?
Good luck with that.
IC, d yu imagine if they show up...
Most of them don't and won't. And I've already suggested why: the mentally-ill are often incapable; addicts generally refuse; migrants often have no information or knowledge of how the system works...
The streets of my city are full of such cases. So are all major cities, and some minor ones, as well. How do we pay to extend to these lost souls the kind of intensive services they need? Some of them will need medical and psychiatric care for the rest of their lives, for that matter.
But you say they are "in the system." Well, I say that the system isn't worth much, if it leaves such people without hope, bent over and dying in the streets.
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 4:25 pm
by MikeNovack
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:14 pm
But you say they are "in the system." Well, I say that the system isn't worth much, if it leaves such people without hope, bent over and dying in the streets.
Is that really so different than for yourself? Assuming you live were covered by "universal health care" are YOU falling outside the system if when sick you simply stay at home and don't go in for medical care? If deathly ill yu just lue there and don;t dial emergency services to get transported to the ER.
Even here, no universal health care, when a homeless person drops on the street they don't just get ignored to lie there. Somebody who sees calls the emergency number and a ambulance comes to transport them to a hospital. If you mean lying there out of sight, so no call, well that is just as true for you at home.
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 4:37 pm
by Immanuel Can
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 4:25 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:14 pm
But you say they are "in the system." Well, I say that the system isn't worth much, if it leaves such people without hope, bent over and dying in the streets.
Is that really so different than for yourself?
Seriously, dude?
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 8:45 pm
by phyllo
Most of them don't and won't. And I've already suggested why: the mentally-ill are often incapable; addicts generally refuse; migrants often have no information or knowledge of how the system works...
The streets of my city are full of such cases.
The number of homeless in Toronto was 12,196 in 2024. Total Toronto population is 3.35 million.
Toronto has the largest homeless population in Canada.
So that's your number or you have fewer homeless in your city.
Your city is not "full of such cases".
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 8:56 pm
by Gary Childress
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:14 pm
MikeNovack wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 2:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 1:53 pm
You think we'll believe you? We see them on the streets every day, in encampments, bent over with addiction, yelling madly on street corners...you call this "in the system," do you? Meanwhile, 60% of your own countrymen don't think the system they're in is adequately serving them, but you think the system is fine?
Good luck with that.
IC, d yu imagine if they show up...
Most of them don't and won't. And I've already suggested why: the mentally-ill are often incapable; addicts generally refuse; migrants often have no information or knowledge of how the system works...
The streets of my city are full of such cases. So are all major cities, and some minor ones, as well. How do we pay to extend to these lost souls the kind of intensive services they need? Some of them will need medical and psychiatric care for the rest of their lives, for that matter.
But you say they are "in the system." Well, I say that the system isn't worth much, if it leaves such people without hope, bent over and dying in the streets.
So, who or what do you think is responsible for the apparent failure of universal health in Canada? If we take it as a given that the system there is broken, as you seem to say it is, then what? Give up and dismantle the system, keep going with it, pray harder to God, eliminate religious blasphemy, give more money to the wealthy so that they "invest" it, or what should be done?
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 9:52 pm
by MikeNovack
phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 8:45 pm
The number of homeless in Toronto was 12,196 in 2024. Total Toronto population is 3.35 million.
Your city is not "full of such cases".
That's 0.3% or about 1 in 300 ------ But in reality, the homeless you see on the street aren't the whole story. There is a much greater number of people lacking homes. Some live in their cars, others are able to "couch surf". Some are in shelters. I don;t know the criteria Toronto uses for homeless.
Re: Universal health care in a universe created by God
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2026 10:04 pm
by Will Bouwman
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 1:53 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 7:25 am
They are in the system.
You think we'll believe you?
Not you, but anyone who can process data, sure.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 1:53 pmWe see them on the streets every day, in encampments, bent over with addiction, yelling madly on street corners...
And in philosophy forums.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2026 1:53 pmMeanwhile, 60% of your own countrymen don't think the system they're in is adequately serving them, but you think the system is fine?
Nope:
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 8:22 pmThe NHS is not perfect.
And here:
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 8:35 pmImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 6:05 pm...your claim of the sufficiency of the NHS is not shared by most English people.
...you will not be able to cite me claiming that the NHS is sufficient.
Nor could you. I do not think the NHS is as good as it could be, but along with 89% of the population, I think it's a good idea.