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Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Fri May 23, 2025 3:07 am
by Immanuel Can
ThinkOfOne wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 2:30 am
The gospel preached by Jesus is also "Biblical".
Jesus Christ is the center of the gospel, it's true. But the gospel was preached both before and after Him by those who anticipated and followed Him. You'll find it in Scripture. Jesus Christ Himself quoted the OT prophets as authoritative, and Himself as their fulfillment; and both the disciples and Paul were personally comissioned as apostles by the risen Christ Himself.
What you're talking about is less than what Jesus Christ HImself talked about.
But you're also completely ignorant of Christian theology, apparently: which is why you accuse Christians of holding attitudes and dispositions they don't hold. You need to do some research.
Sorry...it's just the truth.
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Fri May 23, 2025 5:28 am
by popeye1945
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 5:45 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri May 16, 2025 8:34 pm
Walker wrote: ↑Fri May 16, 2025 5:06 pm
However, mathematics is a language to recognize and discover order, rather than create order.
I don't recall making that statement. However, it is obvious that with the aid of mathematics one can create order where once was chaos.
Show me.
Counting!
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Fri May 23, 2025 8:15 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 5:28 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 5:45 pm
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri May 16, 2025 8:34 pm
I don't recall making that statement. However, it is obvious that with the aid of mathematics one can create order where once was chaos.
Show me.
Counting!
Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, or course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Sun May 25, 2025 1:55 am
by popeye1945
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 8:15 am
Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, of course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.
All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Sun May 25, 2025 8:43 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 1:55 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 8:15 am
Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, of course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.
All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?
I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Sun May 25, 2025 9:03 am
by Belinda
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 8:43 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 1:55 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 8:15 am
Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, of course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.
All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?
I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?
Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again people need some misrule as comic reliel.
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Sun May 25, 2025 9:23 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:03 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 8:43 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 1:55 am
All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?
I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?
Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again people need some misrule as comic reliel.
Practical? As opposed to impractical? Cardinality doesn't create information where none exists surely? It's purely arbitrary. The background of the number line of time is used to demonstrate chaos of course, a metronome alongside a double pendulum. And yeah, human nature is quirky as Nietzsche observed. Can anyone show me counting creating information, data that didn't objectively exist before it?
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Sun May 25, 2025 9:54 am
by Belinda
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:23 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:03 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 8:43 am
I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?
Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again people need some misrule as comic reliel.
Practical? As opposed to impractical? Cardinality doesn't create information where none exists surely? It's purely arbitrary. The background of the number line of time is used to demonstrate chaos of course, a metronome alongside a double pendulum. And yeah, human nature is quirky as Nietzsche observed. Can anyone show me counting creating information, data that didn't objectively exist before it?
I think I can, Martin. Counting depends upon shared attributes of what is being counted. For instance the attribute of "edible thing". E.g. the attribute of same arbitrary exchange value. For instance the attribute of 'as long as your forearm from fingertip to elbow'. Any attribute will do as long as there is a perceived need to evaluate.
Information informs only according to perceived need. Truth isn't the same as information and depends on the inborn idea that there is eternal Form of truth, if you are a Platonist. I think Euclid and Pythagoras were influenced by Platinic ideas. Plato. Practically speaking, commercial man must be spiritually Platonist because commerce depends upon honesty as the default. An intelligent criminal knows when her behaviour is dishonest.
That last claim needs evidence, actually, and also an opinion on cultural relativity.
While these individuals were not direct followers, there are some connections between their ideas:
Pythagoreanism and Plato:
Plato's philosophical ideas were influenced by Pythagoreanism, particularly in areas like the theory of Forms and the importance of mathematics.
Platonic Influence on Euclid:
Euclid's work, particularly in geometry, was likely influenced by the earlier geometric ideas developed within the Platonic tradition.
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Sun May 25, 2025 10:12 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:54 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:23 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:03 am
Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again people need some misrule as comic reliel.
Practical? As opposed to impractical? Cardinality doesn't create information where none exists surely? It's purely arbitrary. The background of the number line of time is used to demonstrate chaos of course, a metronome alongside a double pendulum. And yeah, human nature is quirky as Nietzsche observed. Can anyone show me counting creating information, data that didn't objectively exist before it?
I think I can, Martin. Counting depends upon shared attributes of what is being counted. For instance the attribute of "edible thing". E.g. the attribute of same arbitrary exchange value. For instance the attribute of 'as long as your forearm from fingertip to elbow'. Any attribute will do as long as there is a perceived need to evaluate.
Information informs only according to perceived need. Truth isn't the same as information and depends on the inborn idea that there is eternal Form of truth, if you are a Platonist. I think Euclid and Pythagoras were influenced by Platinic ideas. Plato. Practically speaking, commercial man must be spiritually Platonist because commerce depends upon honesty as the default. An intelligent criminal knows when her behaviour is dishonest.
That last claim needs evidence, actually, and also an opinion on cultural relativity.
While these individuals were not direct followers, there are some connections between their ideas:
Pythagoreanism and Plato:
Plato's philosophical ideas were influenced by Pythagoreanism, particularly in areas like the theory of Forms and the importance of mathematics.
Platonic Influence on Euclid:
Euclid's work, particularly in geometry, was likely influenced by the earlier geometric ideas developed within the Platonic tradition.
Yeah but, where's the information that didn't exist before the counting? Where's the order that wasn't there? Counting can only reveal order to a counter, not create it.
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Sun May 25, 2025 11:08 am
by Belinda
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 10:12 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:54 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:23 am
Practical? As opposed to impractical? Cardinality doesn't create information where none exists surely? It's purely arbitrary. The background of the number line of time is used to demonstrate chaos of course, a metronome alongside a double pendulum. And yeah, human nature is quirky as Nietzsche observed. Can anyone show me counting creating information, data that didn't objectively exist before it?
I think I can, Martin. Counting depends upon shared attributes of what is being counted. For instance the attribute of "edible thing". E.g. the attribute of same arbitrary exchange value. For instance the attribute of 'as long as your forearm from fingertip to elbow'. Any attribute will do as long as there is a perceived need to evaluate.
Information informs only according to perceived need. Truth isn't the same as information and depends on the inborn idea that there is eternal Form of truth, if you are a Platonist. I think Euclid and Pythagoras were influenced by Platinic ideas. Plato. Practically speaking, commercial man must be spiritually Platonist because commerce depends upon honesty as the default. An intelligent criminal knows when her behaviour is dishonest.
That last claim needs evidence, actually, and also an opinion on cultural relativity.
While these individuals were not direct followers, there are some connections between their ideas:
Pythagoreanism and Plato:
Plato's philosophical ideas were influenced by Pythagoreanism, particularly in areas like the theory of Forms and the importance of mathematics.
Platonic Influence on Euclid:
Euclid's work, particularly in geometry, was likely influenced by the earlier geometric ideas developed within the Platonic tradition.
Yeah but, where the information that didn't exist before the counting? Where's the order that wasn't there? Counting can only reveal order to a counter, not create it.
'Information' is a reification word for a process which is not a thing at all . The process : transmitting and receiving using a commonly understood medium.
The Platonic Form of truth is constant and eternal. We don't live in Eternity. The "order that wasn't there " is eternal and unattainable. When we evaluate and quantify we are a shadow of eternal truth. Mathematics may have have randomly hit upon eternal truth but we can't know that. How we know stuff is not the same as what stuff exists and I don't know if those can ever be aligned.
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Sun May 25, 2025 11:55 am
by Martin Peter Clarke
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 11:08 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 10:12 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:54 am
I think I can, Martin. Counting depends upon shared attributes of what is being counted. For instance the attribute of "edible thing". E.g. the attribute of same arbitrary exchange value. For instance the attribute of 'as long as your forearm from fingertip to elbow'. Any attribute will do as long as there is a perceived need to evaluate.
Information informs only according to perceived need. Truth isn't the same as information and depends on the inborn idea that there is eternal Form of truth, if you are a Platonist. I think Euclid and Pythagoras were influenced by Platinic ideas. Plato. Practically speaking, commercial man must be spiritually Platonist because commerce depends upon honesty as the default. An intelligent criminal knows when her behaviour is dishonest.
That last claim needs evidence, actually, and also an opinion on cultural relativity.
While these individuals were not direct followers, there are some connections between their ideas:
Pythagoreanism and Plato:
Plato's philosophical ideas were influenced by Pythagoreanism, particularly in areas like the theory of Forms and the importance of mathematics.
Platonic Influence on Euclid:
Euclid's work, particularly in geometry, was likely influenced by the earlier geometric ideas developed within the Platonic tradition.
Yeah but, where the information that didn't exist before the counting? Where's the order that wasn't there? Counting can only reveal order to a counter, not create it.
'Information' is a reification word for a process which is not a thing at all . The process : transmitting and receiving using a commonly understood medium.
The Platonic Form of truth is constant and eternal. We don't live in Eternity. The "order that wasn't there " is eternal and unattainable. When we evaluate and quantify we are a shadow of eternal truth. Mathematics may have have randomly hit upon eternal truth but we can't know that. How we know stuff is not the same as what stuff exists and I don't know if those can ever be aligned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informati ... sory_input from here. Our knowing is irrelevant.
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Sun May 25, 2025 8:13 pm
by Belinda
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 11:55 am
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 11:08 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 10:12 am
Yeah but, where the information that didn't exist before the counting? Where's the order that wasn't there? Counting can only reveal order to a counter, not create it.
'Information' is a reification word for a process which is not a thing at all . The process : transmitting and receiving using a commonly understood medium.
The Platonic Form of truth is constant and eternal. We don't live in Eternity. The "order that wasn't there " is eternal and unattainable. When we evaluate and quantify we are a shadow of eternal truth. Mathematics may have have randomly hit upon eternal truth but we can't know that. How we know stuff is not the same as what stuff exists and I don't know if those can ever be aligned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informati ... sory_input from here. Our knowing is irrelevant.
Have you seen the joke about the driver who sees the road sign that indicates falling rocks, and takes it to signal "Natives are unfriendly".
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Mon May 26, 2025 9:39 pm
by popeye1945
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 8:43 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 1:55 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri May 23, 2025 8:15 am
Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, of course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.
All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?
I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?
How many variables are involved in any given pattern or system? What are their dimensions and spatial relations?
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Mon May 26, 2025 9:44 pm
by popeye1945
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 9:03 am
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 8:43 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 1:55 am
All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?
I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?
Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again, people need some misrule as comic relief.
Hi Belinda.
God then is quite human--- lol!! Projection!!
Re: Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system
Posted: Mon May 26, 2025 10:35 pm
by Martin Peter Clarke
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon May 26, 2025 9:39 pm
Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 8:43 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun May 25, 2025 1:55 am
All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?
I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?
How many variables are involved in any given pattern or system? What are their dimensions and spatial relations?
Typical. No answer.
How do addition, subtraction, multiplication and division create order that didn't exist?
See above.
Why don't you invoke Goedel I wonder?