Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system

[Immanuel Can]

The gospel preached by Jesus is also "Biblical".

Jesus Christ is the center of the gospel, it's true. But the gospel was preached both before and after Him by those who anticipated and followed Him. You'll find it in Scripture. Jesus Christ Himself quoted the OT prophets as authoritative, and Himself as their fulfillment; and both the disciples and Paul were personally comissioned as apostles by the risen Christ Himself.

What you're talking about is less than what Jesus Christ HImself talked about.

But you're also completely ignorant of Christian theology, apparently: which is why you accuse Christians of holding attitudes and dispositions they don't hold. You need to do some research.

Sorry...it's just the truth.

[popeye1945]

However, mathematics is a language to recognize and discover order, rather than create order.

I don't recall making that statement. However, it is obvious that with the aid of mathematics one can create order where once was chaos.

Show me.

Counting!

[Martin Peter Clarke]

I don't recall making that statement. However, it is obvious that with the aid of mathematics one can create order where once was chaos.

Show me.

Counting!

Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, or course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.

[popeye1945]

Show me.

Counting!

Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, of course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.

All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Counting!

Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, of course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.

All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?

I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?

[Belinda]

Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, of course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.

All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?

I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?

Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again people need some misrule as comic reliel.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?

I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?

Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again people need some misrule as comic reliel.

Practical? As opposed to impractical? Cardinality doesn't create information where none exists surely? It's purely arbitrary. The background of the number line of time is used to demonstrate chaos of course, a metronome alongside a double pendulum. And yeah, human nature is quirky as Nietzsche observed. Can anyone show me counting creating information, data that didn't objectively exist before it?

[Belinda]

I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?

Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again people need some misrule as comic reliel.

Practical? As opposed to impractical? Cardinality doesn't create information where none exists surely? It's purely arbitrary. The background of the number line of time is used to demonstrate chaos of course, a metronome alongside a double pendulum. And yeah, human nature is quirky as Nietzsche observed. Can anyone show me counting creating information, data that didn't objectively exist before it?

I think I can, Martin. Counting depends upon shared attributes of what is being counted. For instance the attribute of "edible thing". E.g. the attribute of same arbitrary exchange value. For instance the attribute of 'as long as your forearm from fingertip to elbow'. Any attribute will do as long as there is a perceived need to evaluate.

Information informs only according to perceived need. Truth isn't the same as information and depends on the inborn idea that there is eternal Form of truth, if you are a Platonist. I think Euclid and Pythagoras were influenced by Platinic ideas. Plato. Practically speaking, commercial man must be spiritually Platonist because commerce depends upon honesty as the default. An intelligent criminal knows when her behaviour is dishonest.

That last claim needs evidence, actually, and also an opinion on cultural relativity.

While these individuals were not direct followers, there are some connections between their ideas:
Pythagoreanism and Plato:
Plato's philosophical ideas were influenced by Pythagoreanism, particularly in areas like the theory of Forms and the importance of mathematics.
Platonic Influence on Euclid:
Euclid's work, particularly in geometry, was likely influenced by the earlier geometric ideas developed within the Platonic tradition.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again people need some misrule as comic reliel.

Practical? As opposed to impractical? Cardinality doesn't create information where none exists surely? It's purely arbitrary. The background of the number line of time is used to demonstrate chaos of course, a metronome alongside a double pendulum. And yeah, human nature is quirky as Nietzsche observed. Can anyone show me counting creating information, data that didn't objectively exist before it?

I think I can, Martin. Counting depends upon shared attributes of what is being counted. For instance the attribute of "edible thing". E.g. the attribute of same arbitrary exchange value. For instance the attribute of 'as long as your forearm from fingertip to elbow'. Any attribute will do as long as there is a perceived need to evaluate.

Information informs only according to perceived need. Truth isn't the same as information and depends on the inborn idea that there is eternal Form of truth, if you are a Platonist. I think Euclid and Pythagoras were influenced by Platinic ideas. Plato. Practically speaking, commercial man must be spiritually Platonist because commerce depends upon honesty as the default. An intelligent criminal knows when her behaviour is dishonest.

That last claim needs evidence, actually, and also an opinion on cultural relativity.

While these individuals were not direct followers, there are some connections between their ideas:
Pythagoreanism and Plato:
Plato's philosophical ideas were influenced by Pythagoreanism, particularly in areas like the theory of Forms and the importance of mathematics.
Platonic Influence on Euclid:
Euclid's work, particularly in geometry, was likely influenced by the earlier geometric ideas developed within the Platonic tradition.

Yeah but, where's the information that didn't exist before the counting? Where's the order that wasn't there? Counting can only reveal order to a counter, not create it.

[Belinda]

Practical? As opposed to impractical? Cardinality doesn't create information where none exists surely? It's purely arbitrary. The background of the number line of time is used to demonstrate chaos of course, a metronome alongside a double pendulum. And yeah, human nature is quirky as Nietzsche observed. Can anyone show me counting creating information, data that didn't objectively exist before it?

I think I can, Martin. Counting depends upon shared attributes of what is being counted. For instance the attribute of "edible thing". E.g. the attribute of same arbitrary exchange value. For instance the attribute of 'as long as your forearm from fingertip to elbow'. Any attribute will do as long as there is a perceived need to evaluate.

Information informs only according to perceived need. Truth isn't the same as information and depends on the inborn idea that there is eternal Form of truth, if you are a Platonist. I think Euclid and Pythagoras were influenced by Platinic ideas. Plato. Practically speaking, commercial man must be spiritually Platonist because commerce depends upon honesty as the default. An intelligent criminal knows when her behaviour is dishonest.

That last claim needs evidence, actually, and also an opinion on cultural relativity.

While these individuals were not direct followers, there are some connections between their ideas:
Pythagoreanism and Plato:
Plato's philosophical ideas were influenced by Pythagoreanism, particularly in areas like the theory of Forms and the importance of mathematics.
Platonic Influence on Euclid:
Euclid's work, particularly in geometry, was likely influenced by the earlier geometric ideas developed within the Platonic tradition.

Yeah but, where the information that didn't exist before the counting? Where's the order that wasn't there? Counting can only reveal order to a counter, not create it.

'Information' is a reification word for a process which is not a thing at all . The process : transmitting and receiving using a commonly understood medium.
The Platonic Form of truth is constant and eternal. We don't live in Eternity. The "order that wasn't there " is eternal and unattainable. When we evaluate and quantify we are a shadow of eternal truth. Mathematics may have have randomly hit upon eternal truth but we can't know that. How we know stuff is not the same as what stuff exists and I don't know if those can ever be aligned.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

I think I can, Martin. Counting depends upon shared attributes of what is being counted. For instance the attribute of "edible thing". E.g. the attribute of same arbitrary exchange value. For instance the attribute of 'as long as your forearm from fingertip to elbow'. Any attribute will do as long as there is a perceived need to evaluate.

Information informs only according to perceived need. Truth isn't the same as information and depends on the inborn idea that there is eternal Form of truth, if you are a Platonist. I think Euclid and Pythagoras were influenced by Platinic ideas. Plato. Practically speaking, commercial man must be spiritually Platonist because commerce depends upon honesty as the default. An intelligent criminal knows when her behaviour is dishonest.

That last claim needs evidence, actually, and also an opinion on cultural relativity.

While these individuals were not direct followers, there are some connections between their ideas:
Pythagoreanism and Plato:
Plato's philosophical ideas were influenced by Pythagoreanism, particularly in areas like the theory of Forms and the importance of mathematics.
Platonic Influence on Euclid:
Euclid's work, particularly in geometry, was likely influenced by the earlier geometric ideas developed within the Platonic tradition.

Yeah but, where the information that didn't exist before the counting? Where's the order that wasn't there? Counting can only reveal order to a counter, not create it.

'Information' is a reification word for a process which is not a thing at all . The process : transmitting and receiving using a commonly understood medium.
The Platonic Form of truth is constant and eternal. We don't live in Eternity. The "order that wasn't there " is eternal and unattainable. When we evaluate and quantify we are a shadow of eternal truth. Mathematics may have have randomly hit upon eternal truth but we can't know that. How we know stuff is not the same as what stuff exists and I don't know if those can ever be aligned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informati ... sory_input from here. Our knowing is irrelevant.

[Belinda]

Yeah but, where the information that didn't exist before the counting? Where's the order that wasn't there? Counting can only reveal order to a counter, not create it.

'Information' is a reification word for a process which is not a thing at all . The process : transmitting and receiving using a commonly understood medium.
The Platonic Form of truth is constant and eternal. We don't live in Eternity. The "order that wasn't there " is eternal and unattainable. When we evaluate and quantify we are a shadow of eternal truth. Mathematics may have have randomly hit upon eternal truth but we can't know that. How we know stuff is not the same as what stuff exists and I don't know if those can ever be aligned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informati ... sory_input from here. Our knowing is irrelevant.

Have you seen the joke about the driver who sees the road sign that indicates falling rocks, and takes it to signal "Natives are unfriendly".

[popeye1945]

Very clever. And entirely arbitrary. Unless, of course, there is an actual pattern in the chaos.

All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?

I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?

How many variables are involved in any given pattern or system? What are their dimensions and spatial relations?

[popeye1945]

All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?

I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?

Practical counting imposes useful order on what looks like a chaotic aggregate. Sciences still impose order on apparent chaos. God is Apollonian with Dionysian tendencies . Now and again, people need some misrule as comic relief.

Hi Belinda.
God then is quite human--- lol!! Projection!!

[Martin Peter Clarke]

All arises from chaos. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What problem do you have with the idea that mathematics/arithmetic can sort out order? Would you not agree that any arrangement repeated is a pattern? How does this relate to the topic ?

I don't have a problem with mathematics finding order in chaos. How does arithmetic do it?

How many variables are involved in any given pattern or system? What are their dimensions and spatial relations?

Typical. No answer.

How do addition, subtraction, multiplication and division create order that didn't exist?

See above.

Why don't you invoke Goedel I wonder?