Understanding the religious mindset

[RCSaunders]

However, if I was standing face-to-face with that little Palestinian girl as she expressed her anguish and tears over her hopeless situation, I personally would feel shame and guilt for being a member ...

Then why do you choose to be a member of what you regard as evil. You ought to be ashamed, but even better, you ought to choose to be an independent individual that does belong to or support any collective. So long as you do not choose to think for yourself and make yourself what you ought to be, and find your identity in some collective--society, or ideology, or country, or community, you will always have to be ashamed of what the ignorant masses you identify yourself with do.

Who do you think the, "America," that, perpetrates the atrocities you decry Is? It's not all the independent individuals who have no use for your government or society, it is you and all those others who believe in some social/political solution to human problems. It is not individual people who happen to live in the United States that support the American government's military adventurism, its all the individuals who identify themselves, "we," when talking about American.

One of the wonderful things about being an independent individual is never feeling any guilt or regret for the horrible things any government does, because they support no government and have no part in any collective society that does.

[gaffo]

Of course, nobody appointed us as our own judge.

BUT I DID that - as my inner voice from a kid - I was my own state judry and executioner!

Well, the wrongs that we do are not primarily against ourselves...they're against others, and ultimately, against God.

In what court is the criminal also granted to serve as judge? And what would happen if that were done?

the court of self respect and self opinion - and its done every hour by every person via every thought/motive/deed until their deaths.

we call this one's Conscience.

Criminals and killers have it, but usually ignore it - others have the same and hear it.

the former kill thier souls because they are at war with their true inner self - their conscience which is always good - but after years of abuse to it via self hate of the ego (due to borrific childhood - and victim blaming (crimiinal perp blames himself for his dad raping him) - sn kills his conscience and then goes on a long campain of suicide via classical tranfirance (I hate myself - killed my conscience by ignoring it for decades) - but being a coward instead of just killing myself - he will kill a bunch of others beause "i hate the world" - when of course the truth is they hate themselves - but in classical tranferance they destroy others as stand in to themeselves - until eventually they

1. get shot by cop.
2. self abuse via drugs or whatever and eventually die
3. after taking out many - like columbine - they fell good/got the fix - then move on to what they always wanted in the first place - and blow their own brains out.






You missed the last half of the verse, I guess.

Just so, God wants us to choose union and friendship with Him. We need an opportunity to choose that, and we need an alternative; otherwise, it was never a choice at all. But when we're in, we're in. And if you're out...well, then that decision too is permanent. But it was freely chosen, too.

I'll choose your God after my dath and from Hell

Apparently not.
[/quote]

oh so you can predict the future - must be a nice talent.

[Immanuel Can]

You missed the last half of the verse, I guess.

I'll choose your God after my dath and from Hell

Apparently not.

oh so you can predict the future

No, but God does, in Hebrews 9:27 or Luke 16:26, for example.

That's all I can tell you. There's no "after death" reversal. People live and die with what they choose now.

[Belinda]

if I was standing face-to-face with that little Palestinian girl as she expressed her anguish and tears over her hopeless situation, I personally would feel shame and guilt for being a member of one of the main imperialistic societies that not only helped to put her in that situation in the first place, but also helps to ensure that she stays there by supporting her oppressor with money and weaponry.

Indeed, it's the same sort of shame and guilt I feel to this very day for what my fellow countrymen did in Vietnam

Unless you personally participate or participated in atrocities, unless you have or had the power to stop atrocities but failed to exert it, I'm not seein' why you feel guilt or shame.

Frustration, at bein' unable to stop atrocity and with TPTB who claim to represent us but who never have, and good, old-fashioned compassion for some targets of atrocity, these are perfectly natural responses; guilt or shame is either neurosis or, in the lingo of the day, virtue signalin'.

The present economic wealth of Europe and the US is founded upon and still benefits from the slave trade

[Immanuel Can]

The present economic wealth of Europe and the US is founded upon and still benefits from the slave trade

In a very, very irrelevant sense, perhaps; but in any sensible sense, no.

Since slavery is part of the fading history in the West, it will always be some part of what made the country what it is. That cannot ever be erased, so it must be accepted as it is. Bad things sometimes have happened. That's history. No country ever escapes that.

But no persons alive in the US have ever owned slaves, and it was great-great grandfathers of some of those alive today in the US who fought the Civil War to free the slaves. The Democrats have more recent history, being the party of Segregation in the South...but that, too, has been gone for over half a century now. Do you want to make children guilty for what their distant forefathers chose to do? In what court would that be considered "justice"?

You don't become guilty by being born. That's ridiculous. You don't become guilty by sex or skin colour. That very idea is itself sexism and racism. And many, many people who now live in the US never had any relatives who ever had slaves at all...so they don't become guilty by way of having immigrated, either. You don't inherit guilt from a dirt patch. You don't even become guilty of anything if you find, when you arrive in the US, that the present situation owes something to the past: it's not your past, you had no say in it, and no sane person could blame you for anything.

If the US was "founded upon" the slave trade (in anything beyond the distant historical sense) they it would not have survived the abolition of slavery. It not only did, but it thrived. And most of the country today has no connection with that past, and cannot possibly do anything to change what happened to other people long, long ago.

So I call "hogwash" on that.

[henry quirk]

The present economic wealth of Europe and the US is founded upon and still benefits from the slave trade.

Simplistic manure, right down there in the cesspool with white privilege and systemic racism and race-based reperations.

Crap of the GRADE A variety.

Slavery, past and present, benefited/benefits the slavers. For your claim to work, you gotta demonstrate the lineage of slavery, trace the bloodlines of it. Joe rapes so all men are responsible, Joyce gold-digs so all women are responsible, neither holds water, yeah? Nor does it hold a drop to say becuz a nation once, and perhaps covertly still does, harbor slavers, everyone in that nation is responsible. Not even in that overt slaver-state, China, does such a bold claim hold water.

But, okay, if that's the game we're gonna play: I challenge you to divest yourself of all your wealth. Set the example, B, don't just point the finger. And, while you're writin' checks to any- and every-one claimin' to suffer from slaver abuse, kneel, B. Kneel and bow your head: ask forgiveness for sins that aren't yours. Wear sackcloth. Sleep in an ally.

Better yet: go offer yourself to some person as a servant. No better way to redress the sins of the world than by layin' yourself down.

Hell, just go to the public square, douse yourself in gasoline, start a big I'm sorry! bonfire.

[Lacewing]

I have always subscribed to the notion that there's an equal amount of good and bad in everything, so you gotta take the bad with the good.

Religion helps a lot of people in all kinds of ways [but also makes them more dependent]. The bottom-line is that it's impossible to understand any of this. Acceptance is key. If it helps somebody [on balance], then it's a good thing.

I agree, simplicity, I see the way religion helps a lot of people, too. I just wonder if it can evolve: keeping the lessons and guideposts that make sense, while moving on from all the stories and dogma which have been twisted into self-serving purposes by men? For example: Dogma is not needed in order to attune to love and compassion and inclusiveness and self-empowerment that can work through us and connects us. And such is clearly accessible to anyone... theist or non-theist.

The idea that only theists are chosen or saved or holy... must be madness, yes? Surely it is a manmade lure and promised reward to keep theists subscribed and loyal to what they're told -- while allowing (even, in some cases inciting) them to condemn and war against any others.

As long as we humans unquestioningly defend and perpetuate old beliefs handed down to us -- and deny the manipulation, distortion, and misuse of them in operating through large controlling entities -- we allow and enable them to continually grow without any checks and balances. I think it's valuable to question them (as we would question any other entity with such power and influence), based on our awareness of the present. Any entity that is set up not to be questioned... should be questioned.

Try to keep in mind that religion is the intellectualization of spirituality so many people will twist it to conform to their [personal and group] interests. The essence of all religion is a non-intellectual pursuit and therefore cannot be corrupted [from without, anyway].

That makes sense.

I see what you're saying. The corruption seems to run deep, however -- so, I'm not so sure many people know how to think for themselves without being swayed by all of the distorted influences.

I believe that goes for all people.

I think there's quite a range of potential for how people are influenced in life... from being thoroughly controlled/directed to being rather independent. People who tie themselves to anything to a large degree, subscribe their identity to it and hand over their more independent, flexible natures. Once the identity is dependent on anything, it loses broader awareness... and, it seems, it will serve whatever it's dependent on. For to step away from that, would seem like a death. When actually, there's much more that can be seen and realized. Fear keeps us tied to a port... where we claim that's all there is, and anything beyond is darkness. That's not true. It doesn't even make sense in such a vast Universe.

[simplicity]

I have always subscribed to the notion that there's an equal amount of good and bad in everything, so you gotta take the bad with the good.

Religion helps a lot of people in all kinds of ways [but also makes them more dependent]. The bottom-line is that it's impossible to understand any of this. Acceptance is key. If it helps somebody [on balance], then it's a good thing.

I agree, simplicity, I see the way religion helps a lot of people, too. I just wonder if it can evolve: keeping the lessons and guideposts that make sense, while moving on from all the stories and dogma which have been twisted into self-serving purposes by men? For example: Dogma is not needed in order to attune to love and compassion and inclusiveness and self-empowerment that can work through us and connects us. And such is clearly accessible to anyone... theist or non-theist.

I am sure that religion has evolved a great deal over the centuries and will continue it's evolution. Since we are living in such chaotic times, I believe that all institutions have kind of fallen behind. The basis of religion is so incredibly fundamental to the most important matters that man has [who am I, what am I doing here, etc.] that religion will be around as long as man is around.

What most people fail to realize is that the answers that man seeks are not intellectual, so man's science nor philosophy will never get there [and, as a matter of pure speculation] keeps pushing him further and further from the truth of the matter.

The idea that only theists are chosen or saved or holy... must be madness, yes? Surely it is a manmade lure and promised reward to keep theists subscribed and loyal to what they're told -- while allowing (even, in some cases inciting) them to condemn and war against any others.

Of course. Religious writing are rarely meant to be taken literally.

As long as we humans unquestioningly defend and perpetuate old beliefs handed down to us -- and deny the manipulation, distortion, and misuse of them in operating through large controlling entities -- we allow and enable them to continually grow without any checks and balances. I think it's valuable to question them (as we would question any other entity with such power and influence), based on our awareness of the present. Any entity that is set up not to be questioned... should be questioned.

Everything has its time and, as well, everything comes and goes. The intellectual stuff is pretty crazy and as convoluted as it gets. Try not to get too caught up in it.

I think there's quite a range of potential for how people are influenced in life... from being thoroughly controlled/directed to being rather independent. People who tie themselves to anything to a large degree, subscribe their identity to it and hand over their more independent, flexible natures. Once the identity is dependent on anything, it loses broader awareness... and, it seems, it will serve whatever it's dependent on. For to step away from that, would seem like a death. When actually, there's much more that can be seen and realized. Fear keeps us tied to a port... where we claim that's all there is, and anything beyond is darkness. That's not true. It doesn't even make sense in such a vast Universe.

Absolutely. But I would suggest that the best we can do is simply see what is going on [without intellectualization to distort our view]. This is about as close as you can get to reality. Although the world is infinitely complex intellectually, it is quite elemental in reality [non-intellectually]. It is our thinking that causes our difficulties in this life.

[seeds]

...if I was standing face-to-face with that little Palestinian girl as she expressed her anguish and tears over her hopeless situation, I personally would feel shame and guilt for being a member of one of the main imperialistic societies that not only helped to put her in that situation in the first place, but also helps to ensure that she stays there by supporting her oppressor with money and weaponry.

Indeed, it's the same sort of shame and guilt I feel to this very day for what my fellow countrymen did in Vietnam...

...I'm not seein' why you feel guilt or shame....guilt or shame is either neurosis or, in the lingo of the day, virtue signalin'.

I clearly stated my reason in the quote you extracted from my post.

Furthermore, I guess it was foolish of me to think that I could carry on a conversation with you without you trying to insult me in some way (implying that I must be suffering from some kind of "neurosis" or just plain old "virtue signaling").

So in response I say why don't you run along and rejoin scarecrow and the cowardly lion in your quest to find the wizard and that special item you're missing.
_______

[simplicity]

If the US was "founded upon" the slave trade (in anything beyond the distant historical sense) they it would not have survived the abolition of slavery. It not only did, but it thrived. And most of the country today has no connection with that past, and cannot possibly do anything to change what happened to other people long, long ago.

I believe this latest attempt to re-write history [in blatantly racist terms] should be a wake-up call for those who believe that we live in some kind of enlightened period. It is simply another attempt at a power/money grab that characterizes all group behavior. Otherwise, one might believe we would have a more balanced presentation of grievances as well as potential remedies.

[seeds]

I wonder how many of us on this forum (especially the Americans) feel any guilt for our (look the other way) complicity in all of the cruel and nefarious things our tax supported leaders do around the world on our behalf?

Not guilt: frustration.

The US ought not be involved in any fashion in any of that nonsense.

But, lookee here...

JERUSALEM—Biden has approved a $735 million weapons sale to Israel. Israel will be paying for the weapons using money from foreign aid given to them by America. According to experts, Israel needs these weapons so they can shoot down Hamas rockets that were given to them by Iran, who paid for them using money given to them by America.

We're not only involved: we're a chief supplier of arms and money to both (all?) sides.

So, yeah, LARGE frustration.

Allies should not protect allies?
Then just retire the concept and erase it from consciousness.

That's not the point, Walker.

For a very simple analogy, just as those other three Minneapolis police officers should have demanded that their ally (officer Chauvin) remove his knee from George Floyd's neck, likewise, the U.S. should demand that Israel remove its knee from the neck of the Palestinians.

In other words, allies should not support allies who not only mistreat other humans, but also thumb their noses at this...

United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334 of 2016 states that Israel's settlement activity constitutes a "flagrant violation" of international law and has "no legal validity". It demands that Israel stop such activity and fulfill its obligations as an occupying power under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Like I said earlier...

The thing that is incredibly ironic to me about the Israel/Jewish situation, is how the Jews, after just recently experiencing the horrors of Nazi discrimination and the holocaust, cannot seem to recognize that they have now become the Nazis with respect to the way they are treating the Palestinians.

How about Instead of "allies," perhaps "partners in crime" would be more fitting?
_______

[seeds]

However, if I was standing face-to-face with that little Palestinian girl as she expressed her anguish and tears over her hopeless situation, I personally would feel shame and guilt for being a member ...

Then why do you choose to be a member of what you regard as evil....So long as you do not choose to think for yourself and make yourself what you ought to be, and find your identity in some collective--society, or ideology, or country, or community, you will always have to be ashamed of what the ignorant masses you identify yourself with do.

If I were any more of an independent thinker compared to my fellow humans, I would probably poof out of existence.

One of the wonderful things about being an independent individual is never feeling any guilt or regret for the horrible things any government does, because they support no government and have no part in any collective society that does.

Are you implying that you have never at any time supported the government of the country in which you reside by paying income taxes?
_______

[seeds]

The present economic wealth of Europe and the US is founded upon and still benefits from the slave trade

Do you want to make children guilty for what their distant forefathers chose to do? In what court would that be considered "justice"?

You don't become guilty by being born. That's ridiculous...

...So I call "hogwash" on that.

Wow, that's one of the most brazenly hypocritical things I have ever heard a Christian say.

Indeed, you have just inadvertently (and correctly) admitted that the very premise upon which Christianity is founded...

(i.e., "original sin")

...is not only ridiculous, but "hogwash."
_______

[Lacewing]

It is our thinking that causes our difficulties in this life.

Indeed.

[Immanuel Can]

If the US was "founded upon" the slave trade (in anything beyond the distant historical sense) they it would not have survived the abolition of slavery. It not only did, but it thrived. And most of the country today has no connection with that past, and cannot possibly do anything to change what happened to other people long, long ago.

I believe this latest attempt to re-write history...

Wow. That's a bad guess. There are actually no controversial facts in it.