Understanding the religious mindset

[seeds]

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Confucius say:

"...He who farts in church must sit in own pew..."

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[seeds]

I wonder how many of us on this forum (especially the Americans) feel any guilt for our (look the other way) complicity in all of the cruel and nefarious things our tax supported leaders do around the world on our behalf?

Not guilt: frustration.

Yes, I understand your use of the word frustration, for that is indeed a fitting emotion.

However, if I was standing face-to-face with that little Palestinian girl as she expressed her anguish and tears over her hopeless situation, I personally would feel shame and guilt for being a member of one of the main imperialistic societies that not only helped to put her in that situation in the first place, but also helps to ensure that she stays there by supporting her oppressor with money and weaponry.

Indeed, it's the same sort of shame and guilt I feel to this very day for what my fellow countrymen did in Vietnam...

...in the My Lai massacre, for example.



The following is a story from a site called "Reading the Pictures" as it pertains to the above image...

The My Lai Massacre captured public awareness largely due to the 1969 public release of graphic photographs taken by Army Photographer Ronald Haeberle...

...By reading the image closely, you can see that the teenager in the right background is buttoning up her blouse. It’s a curious action. Why would she be preoccupied with a button while the other people in the photograph were terrified of being killed? Why was the button undone to begin with?

Testimony from the 1969-1979 Peers Inquiry solves the mystery of the button: the image actually captures these women and children in the moments between a sexual assault and mass murder....

...According to testimony of Jay Roberts, the Army Journalist who had accompanied Haeberle that day, the soldiers were calling the teenager “V.C. Boom Boom”—the colloquial term for a Vietcong prostitute during Vietnam. Continuing, Roberts revealed that the older woman appears so anguished because she was trying to protect the girl from being assaulted by the soldiers...

...Once the soldiers noticed the photographer and journalist, they ceased the assault. Haeberle later recalled that after walking away, “I heard an M-60 [machine gun] go off, and when we turned back around, all of [the women] and the kids with them were dead.”

In light of the above story, I'm afraid that the word "frustration" doesn't quite describe what Americans "should" be feeling with regards to that sickening event (among many others) that took place back then.

And the problem is, that the same cold-hearted evilness that prompted those soldiers to do what they did in Vietnam is still present in the way America conducts itself today in the Middle East and elsewhere around the world.
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[seeds]

Many people insist that their skewed, limited thoughts/ideas/beliefs are facts and truth. It is a mindset that cannot be reasoned with easily because the investment in it is tied to their ego. They reject and do not care about anything to the contrary.

Spot-on.

I wonder how many of us on this forum (especially the Americans) feel any guilt for our (look the other way) complicity in all of the cruel and nefarious things our tax supported leaders do around the world on our behalf?

I think many of us are disgusted by such things. It seems there is only so much any of us can do to change the direction of giant entities of rabid insanity... so we try to deal with all the crazy crap right in front of us each day, and do what we feel called to do. I think our energy makes ripples... and as humankind evolves, I'm guessing there will be a tipping point that causes civilization's structures of sand (no longer propped up by egos) to fall into dust. At some point, old beliefs will be allowed to fade.

Agreed.

However, I fear that any sort of meaningful change will require something far more disruptive than a mere "fading" process.

I mean, something has to somehow literally "break" the ingrained cycles that perpetuate the status quo.

This is why I think old people should not be charting a future they have no clue of. They force their own limitations onto generations that follow... and stunt the evolution of humankind...

Not only no clue of, but seeing how they are going to die soon, they also have no "personal stake" in the future.

However, on the other hand, there certainly are a lot of knucklehead younger people who should not be charting anything either.

For example...

...Age does not equate to wisdom. Just as gender or race do not indicate superiority.

Once again, another spot-on observation.
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[Walker]

I wonder how many of us on this forum (especially the Americans) feel any guilt for our (look the other way) complicity in all of the cruel and nefarious things our tax supported leaders do around the world on our behalf?

Not guilt: frustration.

The US ought not be involved in any fashion in any of that nonsense.

But, lookee here...

JERUSALEM—Biden has approved a $735 million weapons sale to Israel. Israel will be paying for the weapons using money from foreign aid given to them by America. According to experts, Israel needs these weapons so they can shoot down Hamas rockets that were given to them by Iran, who paid for them using money given to them by America.

We're not only involved: we're a chief supplier of arms and money to both (all?) sides.

So, yeah, LARGE frustration.

Allies should not protect allies?
Then just retire the concept and erase it from consciousness.


Some folks use shotguns for murder.
Some folks use shotguns for self-defense.
Some folks blame the shotgun manufacturer for murder and self-defense.
Some folks self-mutilate and become representative posters for most any purpose.

People shouldn’t be surprised when agitating for self-destruction results in mercy from an overwhelmingly superior, humanitarian force of a religious mindset, that is capable of scouring the earth.

[Belinda]

I wonder how many of us on this forum (especially the Americans) feel any guilt for our (look the other way) complicity in all of the cruel and nefarious things our tax supported leaders do around the world on our behalf?

Not guilt: frustration.

Yes, I understand your use of the word frustration, for that is indeed a fitting emotion.

However, if I was standing face-to-face with that little Palestinian girl as she expressed her anguish and tears over her hopeless situation, I personally would feel shame and guilt for being a member of one of the main imperialistic societies that not only helped to put her in that situation in the first place, but also helps to ensure that she stays there by supporting her oppressor with money and weaponry.

Indeed, it's the same sort of shame and guilt I feel to this very day for what my fellow countrymen did in Vietnam...

...in the My Lai massacre, for example.



The following is a story from a site called "Reading the Pictures" as it pertains to the above image...

The My Lai Massacre captured public awareness largely due to the 1969 public release of graphic photographs taken by Army Photographer Ronald Haeberle...

...By reading the image closely, you can see that the teenager in the right background is buttoning up her blouse. It’s a curious action. Why would she be preoccupied with a button while the other people in the photograph were terrified of being killed? Why was the button undone to begin with?

Testimony from the 1969-1979 Peers Inquiry solves the mystery of the button: the image actually captures these women and children in the moments between a sexual assault and mass murder....

...According to testimony of Jay Roberts, the Army Journalist who had accompanied Haeberle that day, the soldiers were calling the teenager “V.C. Boom Boom”—the colloquial term for a Vietcong prostitute during Vietnam. Continuing, Roberts revealed that the older woman appears so anguished because she was trying to protect the girl from being assaulted by the soldiers...

...Once the soldiers noticed the photographer and journalist, they ceased the assault. Haeberle later recalled that after walking away, “I heard an M-60 [machine gun] go off, and when we turned back around, all of [the women] and the kids with them were dead.”

In light of the above story, I'm afraid that the word "frustration" doesn't quite describe what Americans "should" be feeling with regards to that sickening event (among many others) that took place back then.

And the problem is, that the same cold-hearted evilness that prompted those soldiers to do what they did in Vietnam is still present in the way America conducts itself today in the Middle East and elsewhere around the world.
_______

This is why education should include novels, theatre, pictures, poetry, and reliably true reportage. And , of course, the ability to read, and otherwise participate in those human arts.These are vicarious means of feeling what others feel. Without empathy and sympathy we are not properly educated as civilised men.

[henry quirk]

if I was standing face-to-face with that little Palestinian girl as she expressed her anguish and tears over her hopeless situation, I personally would feel shame and guilt for being a member of one of the main imperialistic societies that not only helped to put her in that situation in the first place, but also helps to ensure that she stays there by supporting her oppressor with money and weaponry.

Indeed, it's the same sort of shame and guilt I feel to this very day for what my fellow countrymen did in Vietnam

Unless you personally participate or participated in atrocities, unless you have or had the power to stop atrocities but failed to exert it, I'm not seein' why you feel guilt or shame.

Frustration, at bein' unable to stop atrocity and with TPTB who claim to represent us but who never have, and good, old-fashioned compassion for some targets of atrocity, these are perfectly natural responses; guilt or shame is either neurosis or, in the lingo of the day, virtue signalin'.

[henry quirk]

Allies should not protect allies?

If the US were truly Israel's ally, it wouldn't directly or roundaboutly fund and arm Israel's enemies.

But it does fund and arm Israel's enemies (just as it sanctions and does business with its own enemies), illustratin', mebbe, the truth of too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup.

Reality is (as I say elsewhere): there is no United States of America.

There is the State: a fairly small collection of folks who exercise power. and their attendants.

...and...

There are regions (ten or eleven) of cultural similarity. Free peoples railroaded into supportin' the State.

In essence: America is really Americas (multiple nations] bein' ridden hard by the clever monsters and parasites of the State.

[henry quirk]

This is why education should include novels, theatre, pictures, poetry, and reliably true reportage.

True, but all this must come from parents and the local community. To expect public educators to do anything other than work to turn out new generations of cogs is terminally naive.

[Lacewing]

Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?

Please excuse the fact that I have not read through this entire thread, but you might consider the following...

One of the main reasons that religion persists is that it [regardless of the actual truth] provides a moral beacon for mankind. Left to his own devices, man will rationalize all kinds of bizarre behavior based on his never ending desires, so having a code to follow provides a straight and narrow path for him once the Devil on his left shoulder starts winning the debate with the angel perched on the right side [npi].

I just received notification of your earlier response! Thank you.

Yes, having a moral beacon seems helpful, even essential... yet, why wouldn't it be a natural capability, readily present for those who are inspired to care about it? Creative man distorts old religion and its guideposts too... using it to rationalize bizarre behavior and ideas... and then sanctions that by a god, or claims he will be forgiven. In many ways, there's no accountability. If it's claimed/done under the banner of god... it's supposedly good and right and true. But humans have stitched together the banner!

Christianity seems to suggest that we humans are too disconnected and unworthy to recognize/realize our place and value in creation, on our own. That we must be led... and (in some cases) punished. We indoctrinate perfect children with this, and the U.S. claims to be a country that trusts in it. Yet, it has become so distorted, and used as a cloak to operate behind. A lot of people continue to readily accept what they're told, rather than seeking relevant awareness and moral compassing of the current day for themselves -- which, if they were to do so, they might discover, and be more inclined to teach, one's own natural empowerment, connection, and divine nature.

[Sculptor]

Allies should not protect allies?

If the US were truly Israel's ally, it wouldn't directly or roundaboutly fund and arm Israel's enemies.

How naive of you

[Lacewing]

I'm guessing there will be a tipping point that causes civilization's structures of sand (no longer propped up by egos) to fall into dust. At some point, old beliefs will be allowed to fade.

I fear that any sort of meaningful change will require something far more disruptive than a mere "fading" process.

I mean, something has to somehow literally "break" the ingrained cycles that perpetuate the status quo.

I think so too. I think that will be part of the tipping point... and it seems inevitable. When humans have to let go of old patterns and structures that no longer stand or make sense (or can no longer be used to deny what else there is), then maybe humans will look back on this snapshot of history as a strange ego-bound phase humankind went through.

This is why I think old people should not be charting a future they have no clue of. They force their own limitations onto generations that follow... and stunt the evolution of humankind...

Not only no clue of, but seeing how they are going to die soon, they also have no "personal stake" in the future.

However, on the other hand, there certainly are a lot of knucklehead younger people who should not be charting anything either.

Hopefully the wise peers of their own age and time can steer the boat.

[simplicity]

Yes, having a moral beacon seems helpful, even essential... yet, why wouldn't it be a natural capability, readily present for those who are inspired to care about it?

Good question. If it was, what a wonderful world this would be!

If I had to speculate, I would suggest that people are not so well behaved [on the whole]. There must be an infinite number of reasons for such, but look out of any window and view for yourself...a world up-side-down.

Christianity seems to suggest that we humans are too disconnected and unworthy to recognize/realize our place and value in creation, on our own. That we must be led... and (in some cases) punished. We indoctrinate perfect children with this, and the U.S. claims to be a country that trusts in it. Yet, it has become so distorted, and used as a cloak to operate behind. A lot of people continue to readily accept what they're told, rather than seeking relevant awareness and moral compassing of the current day for themselves -- which, if they were to do so, they might discover, and be more inclined to teach, one's own natural empowerment, connection, and divine nature.

Try to keep in mind that religion is the intellectualization of spirituality so many people will twist it to conform to their [personal and group] interests. The essence of all religion is a non-intellectual pursuit and therefore cannot be corrupted [from without, anyway].

If you examine the history of mankind, I believe you will find that this is distinct pattern throughout.

[henry quirk]

Walker asked: Allies should not protect allies?

I responded: If the US were truly Israel's ally, it wouldn't directly or roundaboutly fund and arm Israel's enemies.

How naive of you

Why?

(guess I'm out of your penalty box...probation: )

[Lacewing]

Yes, having a moral beacon seems helpful, even essential... yet, why wouldn't it be a natural capability, readily present for those who are inspired to care about it?

Good question. If it was, what a wonderful world this would be!

If I had to speculate, I would suggest that people are not so well behaved [on the whole]. There must be an infinite number of reasons for such, but look out of any window and view for yourself...a world up-side-down.

But that view... outside the window... is an upside-down world with religion. Might we be imagining that religion (as it is) is helping, when perhaps religion (as it is) might actually make a lot of people complacent or more reactive? How do we know? If the world is as it is WITH religion, why do we imagine it needs religion or it would be worse?

Try to keep in mind that religion is the intellectualization of spirituality so many people will twist it to conform to their [personal and group] interests. The essence of all religion is a non-intellectual pursuit and therefore cannot be corrupted [from without, anyway].

I see what you're saying. The corruption seems to run deep, however -- so, I'm not so sure many people know how to think for themselves without being swayed by all of the distorted influences.

Nice chatting with you. I don't mean any offense with the questions I ask.

[simplicity]

But that view... outside the window... is an upside-down world with religion. Might we be imagining that religion (as it is) is helping, when perhaps religion (as it is) might actually make a lot of people complacent or more reactive? How do we know? If the world is as it is WITH religion, why do we imagine it needs religion or it would be worse?

I have always subscribed to the notion that there's an equal amount of good and bad in everything, so you gotta take the bad with the good.

Religion helps a lot of people in all kinds of ways [but also makes them more dependent]. The bottom-line is that it's impossible to understand any of this. Acceptance is key. If it helps somebody [on balance], then it's a good thing.

Try to keep in mind that religion is the intellectualization of spirituality so many people will twist it to conform to their [personal and group] interests. The essence of all religion is a non-intellectual pursuit and therefore cannot be corrupted [from without, anyway].

I see what you're saying. The corruption seems to run deep, however -- so, I'm not so sure many people know how to think for themselves without being swayed by all of the distorted influences.

I believe that goes for all people. As a great mind in Tang dynasty China once uttered, "Open you mouth and you have already lost it" [the truth].

Nice chatting with you. I don't mean any offense with the questions I ask.

Offence never taken. I am enjoying the conversation, as well.