The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 2:01 pm

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 9:58 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 6:18 pm
So the Torah treats it as real, and you think "science" is contradicting it? Just how does science do that?

The Torah is a text written by man.

It depends what you mean "written by." The stylus may have been in the hand of Moses: does that mean the words belonged only to Moses? That's not the orthodox Jewish view, for certain. When Moses brought Torah, he had not dictated or revealed it to himself, had he?

In any case, you're not answering the question: in what way is it your claim that Torah is "contradicted" by science?

God could not dictate anything, because He is not material.

A literal understanding of the story of Adam and Eve contradicts science, what's unclear about that?

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 2:49 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 2:01 pm

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 9:58 am
The Torah is a text written by man.

It depends what you mean "written by." The stylus may have been in the hand of Moses: does that mean the words belonged only to Moses? That's not the orthodox Jewish view, for certain. When Moses brought Torah, he had not dictated or revealed it to himself, had he?

In any case, you're not answering the question: in what way is it your claim that Torah is "contradicted" by science?

God could not dictate anything, because He is not material.

Torah is false, then? The Ten Commandments were not written by God, God did not speak to Abraham, Israel is not blessed...?

That would certainly not be the beliefs of Judaism. What religion are you?

A literal understanding of the story of Adam and Eve contradicts science, what's unclear about that?

What's unclear is that it contradicts science in any way. Which particular "scientific" finding are you meaning?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:01 pm

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 2:49 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 2:01 pm
It depends what you mean "written by." The stylus may have been in the hand of Moses: does that mean the words belonged only to Moses? That's not the orthodox Jewish view, for certain. When Moses brought Torah, he had not dictated or revealed it to himself, had he?

In any case, you're not answering the question: in what way is it your claim that Torah is "contradicted" by science?

God could not dictate anything, because He is not material.

Torah is false, then? The Ten Commandments were not written by God, God did not speak to Abraham, Israel is not blessed...?

That would certainly not be the beliefs of Judaism. What religion are you?

The literal understanding of the Torah is false.
On how to correctly understand the Torah - Maimonides' Guide for the Perplexed.

***What's unclear is that it contradicts science in any way.***
I don't see anything that doesn't contradict.
For example, what does not contradict science in the literal understanding of the story of Adam and Eve?

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 5:21 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:01 pm

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 2:49 pm
God could not dictate anything, because He is not material.

Torah is false, then? The Ten Commandments were not written by God, God did not speak to Abraham, Israel is not blessed...?

That would certainly not be the beliefs of Judaism. What religion are you?

The literal understanding of the Torah is false.

Oh. So then, ideologically, you're not a Jew...you're a "Maimonadesian."

***What's unclear is that it contradicts science in any way.***

I don't see anything that doesn't contradict.
For example, what does not contradict science in the literal understanding of the story of Adam and Eve?

I'm waiting to see what you think it is that does. What alternate story about that are you thinking is more "scientific"? And what's the "scientific" data that convinces you of it?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 5:45 pm

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 5:21 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:01 pm
Torah is false, then? The Ten Commandments were not written by God, God did not speak to Abraham, Israel is not blessed...?

That would certainly not be the beliefs of Judaism. What religion are you?

The literal understanding of the Torah is false.

Oh. So then, ideologically, you're not a Jew...you're a "Maimonadesian."

The principles of faith of Maimonides are generally accepted and the most authoritative.
In general, there are no dogmas in Judaism, in Judaism there is more emphasis on observing the commandments, with freedom of philosophizing.
There are those who literally believe in the talking Serpent who spoke to Eve from the rib, and there are those who are more philosophical.

By the way, Ben-Gurion said, “I don’t go to synagogue, but my synagogue is Orthodox.”
I go to synagogue, and my synagogue is Orthodox, thank God.
And Ben-Gurion did not separate religion from the state, well done.
By the way, I published an article on the topic of faith in a religious publication that publishes central rabbis, I will give a link to this article here, but it is in Hebrew,
https://asif.co.il/wpfb-file/zhr-33-1-p ... CuTubIUNNw
This article also covers the topic of Darwin and other pressing issues for religious people.

***And what's the "scientific" data that convinces you of it?***
I have already cited generally accepted scientific data on human evolution above, citing Wikipedia, but you can refer to other encyclopedias.

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 10:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 5:45 pm

Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 5:21 pm
The literal understanding of the Torah is false.

Oh. So then, ideologically, you're not a Jew...you're a "Maimonadesian."

The principles of faith of Maimonides are generally accepted and the most authoritative.

What's not accepted, in the Jewish community at large, is a dismissive attitude to Torah.

***And what's the "scientific" data that convinces you of it?***

I have already cited generally accepted scientific data on human evolution above, citing Wikipedia, but you can refer to other encyclopedias.

Oh, Evolutionism. Well, in what way do you assume Evolutionism is supposed to disprove Torah? Be specific, please: what data do you mean?